Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
WindyCity

What if Mitch is not the guy?

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, topwop1 said:

Please enlighten us about the unfounded mental issue claims that you say Trubisky has.  What are you basing this off of, 1 game in an new offensive system or 12 games in an archaic offensive system with CFL talent wide receivers?

Yes, I am basing it off of that. Because while I acknowledge Trubisky's unfortunate situation last season, I'm also not going to throw his entire staff and teammates under the bus as just an excuse for all of his flaws either.

His coaches/teammates didn't make him crumble in pressure situations....he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him miss those throws...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him not see those open receivers and instead throw the ball into double coverage...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him freak out anytime he feels even the slightest of pressure and his 1st and 2nd read aren't there.....he did. His coaches and teammates didn't make him get nervous and run into his own teammate and fumble...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him lose confidence in himself, mid-game, that kept him from throwing to an open target in RZ all because of one bad throw on the previous play....he did that. Nobody else. 

You know what's funny about all of this is. Everyone from Bears fan to beat-writers are quick to praise and point out Trubisky's positives from last season and use the "lack of supporting cast and staff" argument as a way to prop him up but I don't ever hear much about his flaws WITHOUT the blame being used as asterisk.   

It's one of my pet peeves among all fan bases. Apologetic fans of certain players will blame the coaches for their faults or vise-versa depending on the narrative without realizing that there is a big difference between game planning and execution. It's the coaching staffs job to set the gameplan and it's players' job to execute said plan. And when it doesn't workout....fans automatically assume it's because either one or the other based on the narrative they wanna believe in most.

Yes, last year was a disaster, which is why I have been on record all off-season saying that this year is really Trubisky's rookie year. But when I see Trubisky making the same mental mistakes in the GB game as he did last year....it's a little concerning and rightfully so.   

 

Edited by JustAnotherFan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yes, I am basing it off of that. Because while I acknowledge Trubisky's unfortunate situation last season, I'm also not going to throw his entire staff and teammates under the bus as just an excuse for all of his flaws either.

His coaches/teammates didn't make him crumble in pressure situations....he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him miss those throws...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him not see those open receivers and instead throw the ball into double coverage...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him freak out anytime he feels even the slightest of pressure and his 1st and 2nd read aren't there.....he did. His coaches and teammates didn't make him get nervous and run into his own teammate and fumble...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him lose confidence in himself, mid-game, that kept him from throwing to an open target in RZ all because of one bad throw on the previous play....he did that. Nobody else. 

You know what's funny about all of this is. Everyone from Bears fan to beat-writers are quick to praise and point out Trubisky's positives from last season and use the "lack of supporting cast and staff" argument as a way to prop him up but I don't ever hear much about his flaws WITHOUT the blame being used as asterisk.   

It's one of my pet peeves among all fan bases. Apologetic fans of certain players will blame the coaches for their faults or vise-versa depending on the narrative without realizing that there is a big difference between game planning and execution. It's the coaching staffs job to set the gameplan and it's players' job to execute said plan. And when it doesn't workout....fans automatically assume it's because either one or the other based on the narrative they wanna believe in most.

Yes, last year was a disaster, which is why I have been on record all off-season saying that this year is really Trubisky's rookie year. But when I see Trubisky making the same mental mistakes in the GB game as he did last year....it's a little concerning and rightfully so.   

 

What pressure situations did Trubisky crumble in last season? The throw to Wright to beat the Ravens in OT was a pressure situation, and he completed it. The final drive to potentially beat Detroit was a pressure situation, and he did it (and then Barth happened). If it wasn’t for the inexplicably terrible call against Zach Miller, he may have QB’d a win in New Orleans. 

Considering everything, he was pretty solid last year IMO.

Edited by beardown3231

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yes, I am basing it off of that. Because while I acknowledge Trubisky's unfortunate situation last season, I'm also not going to throw his entire staff and teammates under the bus as just an excuse for all of his flaws either.

His coaches/teammates didn't make him crumble in pressure situations....he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him miss those throws...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him not see those open receivers and instead throw the ball into double coverage...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him freak out anytime he feels even the slightest of pressure and his 1st and 2nd read aren't there.....he did. His coaches and teammates didn't make him get nervous and run into his own teammate and fumble...he did. His coaches/teammates didn't make him lose confidence in himself, mid-game, that kept him from throwing to an open target in RZ all because of one bad throw on the previous play....he did that. Nobody else. 

You know what's funny about all of this is. Everyone from Bears fan to beat-writers are quick to praise and point out Trubisky's positives from last season and use the "lack of supporting cast and staff" argument as a way to prop him up but I don't ever hear much about his flaws WITHOUT the blame being used as asterisk.   

It's one of my pet peeves among all fan bases. Apologetic fans of certain players will blame the coaches for their faults or vise-versa depending on the narrative without realizing that there is a big difference between game planning and execution. It's the coaching staffs job to set the gameplan and it's players' job to execute said plan. And when it doesn't workout....fans automatically assume it's because either one or the other based on the narrative they wanna believe in most.

Yes, last year was a disaster, which is why I have been on record all off-season saying that this year is really Trubisky's rookie year. But when I see Trubisky making the same mental mistakes in the GB game as he did last year....it's a little concerning and rightfully so.   

 

I'm not saying Trubs isn't at fault or should be excused for any of those things that you just mentioned, but rather that it's pretty ridiculous thinking to come to the conclusion after only viewing a small sample size of games that he has "mental issues" which will be hard to get resolved.  I mean yes I'll agree that he has a lot of work and growing to do but any level headed thinking person shouldn't have expected anything more at this point.  To each their own though....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Trubisky made some spectacular throws, placement wise, in the first half. What happened in the second can be chalked up to any number of things, including fiercer pressure. 

I think overreaction is even more uncalled for, in this case. Although I will concede the way he fell apart is concerning. 

While I still think this is all basically true...I didn't really address the main question posed by @WindyCity, right there in the thread title, and I don't think most of the rest of us really have either. It's kind of become a 'IS Mitch the guy?' thread. But...

What IF Mitch is NOT the guy?

If any of you checked out the fun-filled Mack trade thread (the one in the news forum, not the one in this section), you probably saw @Pool and I having wonderful conversations with some level-headed, reasonable Packers fans (can't find the sarcasm font button, sorry)  who maintained we're screwed because the Bears don't have those first round picks to replace Trubisky. As I was more interested in pointing out the Packers fans' childish buffoonery than exploring that topic even further (and thus derailing that thread even more), I didn't get into it. We might as well get into it now, as it's a fun topic to be hashed out, I think, and what better place to do it than here, where the folks are far more, ahem, reasonable...

--Highly rated college quarterbacks will most likely fall in the next couple of drafts. Think about it. Which teams that really, really need a good young quarterback currently don't have one? And I'm not talking about teams who may have drafted wrong, I mean teams who aren't currently linked to a young guy that need one. I can come up with two--the Broncos and the Chargers. That's it. The Bucs may decide that Winston is too much of a meathead to keep around, the Giants may be publicly overstating how much longer they intend to go with Eli, the Texans may discover (to their horror) that DeShaun Watson really does turn out to be as injury prone as his detractors have always claimed he would be. None of those last three possibilities are even close to sure things. Odds are a very good young quarterback will fall to the second, or possibly third, round in the next couple of drafts.

--Joe Flacco. I'm far from a Flacco fan. However he will be cut this off-season or next, and if he joined the Bears would most likely be surrounded with the best offensive talent of his career. He's also shown he can win big playoff games and the Super Bowl. 

--Nick Foles. Ahh, good ol' Mr. Foles. The highlight of one of those wonderful Packer fan conversations in the Mack thread. But, anyway,--hey! Foles can really play. When you sort of balance out his ups and downs, you pretty much come up with a league average quarterback, which is perfectly fine (and which, for the sake of this argument, is something I'm assuming Trubisky will NOT be). You can win a Super Bowl with a top 3 defense and a league average quarterback

--One of the young guys the Steelers have. I've been fairly impressed with what we've seen from Josh Dobbs and Mason Rudolph thus far. Odds are, the Steelers won't be keeping both of them around for long, and/or would be more than willing to trade one of them away. Yeah, yeah, I know that sending away more picks would be brutal for the Bears, but we're kinda talking worse case scenario, right?...

--Chase Daniel. Don't laugh. The guy is good, and has proven so many times. When he was brought back to New Orleans, many suspected Loomis and Payton had him pegged as Drew Brees' successor. He's also not that old. This possibility is not as far fetched as one might initially think. 

--Outliers. Johnny Manziel. Jameis Winston as a reclamation project. A backup who was never truly given a fair shot--C.J. Beatherd comes to mind.

Thoughts?: 

Edited by Heinz D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here’s an idea - how about we treat the situation as one where we have a developing player in a key position who we’ve known all along was going to need to grow into the position at the NFL level, and not piss and moan because he isn’t immediately GREAT? You know, a logical approach to the actual situation at hand? To read some of this stuff you’d think he was Nathan effing Peterman out there. He was the 2nd best QB in a game against Aaron frickin’ Rodgers. STOP THE PRESSES! Yeah, he left a few plays out there, but this wasn’t a 5 INT Cutler performance in his first game against GB. He had an up and down game in his first start at Lambeau and first game in a complex new offense. He didn’t lose us this game. Hell, he drove us down for what SHOULD have been the game sealing drive taking over 6 minutes off the clock in a drive that should have ended in kneel downs (that’s on Nagy). He also SIGNIFICANTLY outplayed Rodgers in the first half before he got hurt. A failed two minute drill after the defense gave away the lead doesn’t change those things.

If people are going to microscrutinize every single play from every single game then guess what - you are never going to be happy with him. Ever. And not only that, but the overly reactionary responses to this game only serve to put more pressure on the kid which works directly against him ever becoming what we want him to become. 

This discussion is 2 years too early. Give the kid a chance to show us what he is before deciding what he is for him. It’s not an unreasonable request. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Here’s an idea - how about we treat the situation as one where we have a developing player in a key position who we’ve known all along was going to need to grow into the position at the NFL level, and not piss and moan because he isn’t immediately GREAT? You know, a logical approach to the actual situation at hand? To read some of this stuff you’d think he was Nathan effing Peterman out there. He was the 2nd best QB in a game against Aaron frickin’ Rodgers. STOP THE PRESSES! Yeah, he left a few plays out there, but this wasn’t a 5 INT Cutler performance in his first game against GB. He had an up and down game in his first start at Lambeau and first game in a complex new offense. He didn’t lose us this game. Hell, he drove us down for what SHOULD have been the game sealing drive taking over 6 minutes off the clock in a drive that should have ended in kneel downs (that’s on Nagy). He also SIGNIFICANTLY outplayed Rodgers in the first half before he got hurt. A failed two minute drill after the defense gave away the lead doesn’t change those things.

If people are going to microscrutinize every single play from every single game then guess what - you are never going to be happy with him. Ever. And not only that, but the overly reactionary responses to this game only serve to put more pressure on the kid which works directly against him ever becoming what we want him to become. 

This discussion is 2 years too early. Give the kid a chance to show us what he is before deciding what he is for him. It’s not an unreasonable request. 

 

...but...Tom Brady was a 6th round pick... we traded up to 2nd overall...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Here’s an idea - how about we treat the situation as one where we have a developing player in a key position who we’ve known all along was going to need to grow into the position at the NFL level, and not piss and moan because he isn’t immediately GREAT? You know, a logical approach to the actual situation at hand? To read some of this stuff you’d think he was Nathan effing Peterman out there. He was the 2nd best QB in a game against Aaron frickin’ Rodgers. STOP THE PRESSES! Yeah, he left a few plays out there, but this wasn’t a 5 INT Cutler performance in his first game against GB. He had an up and down game in his first start at Lambeau and first game in a complex new offense. He didn’t lose us this game. Hell, he drove us down for what SHOULD have been the game sealing drive taking over 6 minutes off the clock in a drive that should have ended in kneel downs (that’s on Nagy). He also SIGNIFICANTLY outplayed Rodgers in the first half before he got hurt. A failed two minute drill after the defense gave away the lead doesn’t change those things.

If people are going to microscrutinize every single play from every single game then guess what - you are never going to be happy with him. Ever. And not only that, but the overly reactionary responses to this game only serve to put more pressure on the kid which works directly against him ever becoming what we want him to become. 

This discussion is 2 years too early. Give the kid a chance to show us what he is before deciding what he is for him. It’s not an unreasonable request. 

Whoa! Slow your roll there, @AZBearsFan:) Trubisky made a few absolutely impressive throws in that first half last Sunday night. That actually encouraged me that he may be further along in his development (while in a new system, to boot) than I anticipated. I also HIGHLY doubt that he'll end up being a below average quarterback. As much of the blame for Sunday's loss goes to the coaching staff as it does to Trubisky, that's pretty clear. I was simply pretending my estimations are all wrong, and going with what I supposed was the intended spirit of the thread, you know? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Here’s an idea - how about we treat the situation as one where we have a developing player in a key position who we’ve known all along was going to need to grow into the position at the NFL level, and not piss and moan because he isn’t immediately GREAT? You know, a logical approach to the actual situation at hand? To read some of this stuff you’d think he was Nathan effing Peterman out there. He was the 2nd best QB in a game against Aaron frickin’ Rodgers. STOP THE PRESSES! Yeah, he left a few plays out there, but this wasn’t a 5 INT Cutler performance in his first game against GB. He had an up and down game in his first start at Lambeau and first game in a complex new offense. He didn’t lose us this game. Hell, he drove us down for what SHOULD have been the game sealing drive taking over 6 minutes off the clock in a drive that should have ended in kneel downs (that’s on Nagy). He also SIGNIFICANTLY outplayed Rodgers in the first half before he got hurt. A failed two minute drill after the defense gave away the lead doesn’t change those things.

If people are going to microscrutinize every single play from every single game then guess what - you are never going to be happy with him. Ever. And not only that, but the overly reactionary responses to this game only serve to put more pressure on the kid which works directly against him ever becoming what we want him to become. 

This discussion is 2 years too early. Give the kid a chance to show us what he is before deciding what he is for him. It’s not an unreasonable request. 

Add to this the context - Trubisky has started fewer high-level football games than many NFL rookies, he's in his 1st year in a new offensive scheme, and his top 3-4 receivers are new acquisitions.

Trubisky leading them to a comeback over Rodgers would have been a storybook ending and would have made people overreact in the other direction. Just because he didn't give us the Hollywood ending doesn't mean he can't develop into a great QB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, topwop1 said:

I'm not saying Trubs isn't at fault or should be excused for any of those things that you just mentioned, but rather that it's pretty ridiculous thinking to come to the conclusion after only viewing a small sample size of games that he has "mental issues" which will be hard to get resolved.  I mean yes I'll agree that he has a lot of work and growing to do but any level headed thinking person shouldn't have expected anything more at this point.  To each their own though....

No doubt. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Tru will NOT grow and develop as a player. I'm simply pointing out the legitimate concerns about him that he has shown up to this point and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Again, this is Tru's rookie year and I'm treating it like that (although Fox shouldn't have thrown him to the wolves last year). I'm treating Tru's last season as I would a senior QB coming out of college. And when I gauge seniors/juniors entering the league, I look at both the negatives and positives and I watch to see if a players' flaws(negatives) that he showed in college are getting any better at the NFL level and at what rate.

When you watch a player in college and go "I don't like X about him because he sucks at Y" and then he gets drafted and goes onto show that those concerns that you had of him spilled over at the NFL level the very next year, were you wrong for criticizing him? No, you were not. I watched Josh Allen continuously miss reads in college and so did may others which was one the knocks against him. Then I watched him make the same damn mistake in a pre-season game against a vanilla defense by not looking off the saftey in a relatively easy offensive play with a 3x1 look.  

Point is,  watching Tru last year is the same that I saw last Sunday. That's all I'm saying. 

Now obviously it's only 1 game. He was playing on prime time, in Lamblow and in a new offense who had not yet worked together in a real game, so I'm not AT ALL writing him off altogether. I'm not like most fans who expect greatness within the first 2 years (as some people on here seem think of anyone questioning Trubisky at all). In fact, I'm a firm believer that it takes high potential QB's 5 years to truly develop. 

Anyhow, I've said my piece on this. We'll see how he does on Monday. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just curious in what works Nagy is hiding his QB while throwing 38 passes to 22 runs.  That's got to be one of the stupidest things I heard.  Also how was he not able to read defenses.  It's not like he threw a ton of picks.  He completed almost 70% of his passes...again.  Some of the things I heard this week are just stupid.  People are parroting things they are hearing from other people and there are no facts behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

No doubt. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Tru will NOT grow and develop as a player. I'm simply pointing out the legitimate concerns about him that he has shown up to this point and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Again, this is Tru's rookie year and I'm treating it like that (although Fox shouldn't have thrown him to the wolves last year). I'm treating Tru's last season as I would a senior QB coming out of college. And when I gauge seniors/juniors entering the league, I look at both the negatives and positives and I watch to see if a players' flaws(negatives) that he showed in college are getting any better at the NFL level and at what rate.

When you watch a player in college and go "I don't like X about him because he sucks at Y" and then he gets drafted and goes onto show that those concerns that you had of him spilled over at the NFL level the very next year, were you wrong for criticizing him? No, you were not. I watched Josh Allen continuously miss reads in college and so did may others which was one the knocks against him. Then I watched him make the same damn mistake in a pre-season game against a vanilla defense by not looking off the saftey in a relatively easy offensive play with a 3x1 look.  

Point is,  watching Tru last year is the same that I saw last Sunday. That's all I'm saying. 

Now obviously it's only 1 game. He was playing on prime time, in Lamblow and in a new offense who had not yet worked together in a real game, so I'm not AT ALL writing him off altogether. I'm not like most fans who expect greatness within the first 2 years (as some people on here seem think of anyone questioning Trubisky at all). In fact, I'm a firm believer that it takes high potential QB's 5 years to truly develop. 

Anyhow, I've said my piece on this. We'll see how he does on Monday. 

And if he’s average on Monday, then what? He sucks for sure?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2018 at 10:07 AM, TankWilliams said:

This thread reminds me how much Chicago is the city of overreactions. 

COOOOOL avatar.  Also, EXACTLY the type of mentality we need our QB to have!!!!!!!

(Lee Van Cleef in western get up)

Edited by 51to54

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

I'm just curious in what works Nagy is hiding his QB while throwing 38 passes to 22 runs.  That's got to be one of the stupidest things I heard.  Also how was he not able to read defenses.  It's not like he threw a ton of picks.  He completed almost 70% of his passes...again.  Some of the things I heard this week are just stupid.  People are parroting things they are hearing from other people and there are no facts behind it.

4.9 yard average per play is what you want from your running game, not your passing game. Tied for 29th in the league average yards per pass and he still got sacked four times.

 

I'm still counting on the randomness of "first game-itis" of a season, but it's always better to worry if your QB's 3 TD 300 yard opening game is a fluke than if your QB's pedestrian performance is what he is.

We came within Miller (I think) dropping the 3rd and 2 pass late in the game from running the clock out. It also took a historic game by a guy playing in his first game in a defense he's only been acquainted with for a few days to help get us there.

 

Edited by 51to54
grammer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, 51to54 said:

4.9 yard average per play is what you want from your running game, not your passing game. Tied for 29th in the league average yards per pass and he still got sacked four times.

 

I'm still counting on the randomness of "first game-itis" of a season, but it's always better to worry if your QB's 3 TD 300 yard opening game is a fluke than if your QB's pedestrian performance is what he is.

We came within Miller (I think) dropping the 3rd and 2 pass late in the game from running the clock out. It also took a historic game by a guy playing in his first game in a defense he's only been acquainted with for a few days to help get us there.

 

I'm not saying he played great.  He didnt say he played well, I'm saying that the criticisms that are being repeated are pretty stupid.  Matt Nagy was trying to hide his qb.  Trubisky was very inaccurate.  He wasnt reading the defense.  He bailed out of the pocket to much.  These things are verifiably incorrect.  You dont hide a QB by passing the ball twice as often as you run.  You dont complete 68% of your passes if you are horribly inaccurate.  The film shows that he was visibly going thru his progressions and seeing the defense well.  And when he took off it was bc the pocket was breaking down and he was extending the play, often keeping the drive alive.  He had 1 to in the 2 minute drill.  The screenshot that was going around all week with Burton open in the endzone was very deceiving as HHCD was actually baring down on him and would have been in position to at least make a play for the ball.  Calling 4 tunnel screens to Turbo when the play hadn't worked all night is not on MT10.  Sims running a 6" route when he needs a yard is not on MT10.  The wrs not coming back to the qb in the scramble drill is not on MT10.  Does he need to get better? Absolutely.  He blew a sure TD to Robinson, and he knew it.  But the doom and gloom this week has been ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

I'm not saying he played great.  He didnt say he played well, I'm saying that the criticisms that are being repeated are pretty stupid.  Matt Nagy was trying to hide his qb.  Trubisky was very inaccurate.  He wasnt reading the defense.  He bailed out of the pocket to much.  These things are verifiably incorrect.  You dont hide a QB by passing the ball twice as often as you run.  You dont complete 68% of your passes if you are horribly inaccurate.  The film shows that he was visibly going thru his progressions and seeing the defense well.  And when he took off it was bc the pocket was breaking down and he was extending the play, often keeping the drive alive.  He had 1 to in the 2 minute drill.  The screenshot that was going around all week with Burton open in the endzone was very deceiving as HHCD was actually baring down on him and would have been in position to at least make a play for the ball.  Calling 4 tunnel screens to Turbo when the play hadn't worked all night is not on MT10.  Sims running a 6" route when he needs a yard is not on MT10.  The wrs not coming back to the qb in the scramble drill is not on MT10.  Does he need to get better? Absolutely.  He blew a sure TD to Robinson, and he knew it.  But the doom and gloom this week has been ridiculous.

Nice stuff. Good post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  



×