.Buzz Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 So, about the "our WRs get no separation" argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 hours ago, .Buzz said: So, about the "our WRs get no separation" argument... This isn't true. He's misreading the definition of the stat. SEP measures distance on targets, not routes ran. They're also in tight coverage on 19.3% of throws. Dak, Rosen and Winston are the only starters who throw into tight windows more. Crossers get the guys open, but when it doesn't work, they don't get open. The receivers are every bit the pile of trash the QB is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, pwny said: This isn't true. He's misreading the definition of the stat. SEP measures distance on targets, not routes ran. They're also in tight coverage on 19.3% of throws. Dak, Rosen and Winston are the only starters who throw into tight windows more. Crossers get the guys open, but when it doesn't work, they don't get open. The receivers are every bit the pile of trash the QB is. It also doesn't really matter so much when guys are open or not, when they can't catch the football anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tugboat said: It also doesn't really matter so much when guys are open or not, when they can't catch the football anyway. Yeah, leading the league in drops isn't great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 These idiots are going to blame this season on “injuries” and trot this **** show out next season too, aren’t they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinderFournette Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, pwny said: These idiots are going to blame this season on “injuries” and trot this **** show out next season too, aren’t they? I EXPECT some changes perhaps at RG and RT and Potentially LT(depends on the draft IMO cuz we all know we cant afford to sign 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedyg Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, pwny said: These idiots are going to blame this season on “injuries” and trot this **** show out next season too, aren’t they? They kind of have to. Look, we talked about this even before this ****-show of a season started. This team, as it was constructed, has a 2-3 year window (with last year being Window 1). The age and contracts of the players in that defense makes that so. The contract that Bortles signed as part of his extension also mirrors that timeline. I believe that 2-3 window also coincides with the coaches contracts. Same goes for the extensions of the younger players that need to be re-signed to keep this core. A rookie QB (in what is a weaker QB draft next season) realistically won't take this team to the SB unless he's special. We are near the salary cap, and will need to get rid of some players. And while Blake can technically be cut, he's only going to be a $4M cap savings, which isn't enough to bring a solid replacement (given our cap situation) unless you're betting on a "rehab" project ala Teddy or Geno or Osweiler, etc. Someone who showed promise but hasn't fully lived up to draft status/potential that is willing to come in for relatively cheap. So yeah, this, for the most part, IS the same team returning next season with minor changes (Harrison for Church being the easiest way to save $4M) plus draft picks. The only other option, should they decide that the window has already closed (which I highly doubt they do) is to basically accelerate the shedding of bad contracts (Jackson, Calais, Bortles, Dareus, Gipson) and re-load in 2020. I brought it up before, but this is the reality when you build a team around an average QB in the NFL. If you get lucky and things roll your way, you maybe go deep in the playoffs, maybe even win a SB (or 2 in the case of Eli). But in between those deep playoff runs, you get years like this where the team is struggling to be a .500 team. Then, you rinse and repeat as you replace aging veteran FAs on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Speedyg said: They kind of have to. Look, we talked about this even before this ****-show of a season started. This team, as it was constructed, has a 2-3 year window (with last year being Window 1). The age and contracts of the players in that defense makes that so. The contract that Bortles signed as part of his extension also mirrors that timeline. I believe that 2-3 window also coincides with the coaches contracts. Same goes for the extensions of the younger players that need to be re-signed to keep this core. A rookie QB (in what is a weaker QB draft next season) realistically won't take this team to the SB unless he's special. We are near the salary cap, and will need to get rid of some players. And while Blake can technically be cut, he's only going to be a $4M cap savings, which isn't enough to bring a solid replacement (given our cap situation) unless you're betting on a "rehab" project ala Teddy or Geno or Osweiler, etc. Someone who showed promise but hasn't fully lived up to draft status/potential that is willing to come in for relatively cheap. So yeah, this, for the most part, IS the same team returning next season with minor changes (Harrison for Church being the easiest way to save $4M) plus draft picks. The only other option, should they decide that the window has already closed (which I highly doubt they do) is to basically accelerate the shedding of bad contracts (Jackson, Calais, Bortles, Dareus, Gipson) and re-load in 2020. I brought it up before, but this is the reality when you build a team around an average QB in the NFL. If you get lucky and things roll your way, you maybe go deep in the playoffs, maybe even win a SB (or 2 in the case of Eli). But in between those deep playoff runs, you get years like this where the team is struggling to be a .500 team. Then, you rinse and repeat as you replace aging veteran FAs on defense. The notion of the bolded just makes me angry. Like you outlined there, they finally hit on a few major things and got a real defense put together and a real team that has a narrow ~3 year window of impact before age and contract extensions inevitably break it up. Those contracts for Jackson, Calais, even Gipson and Dareus are at least fine, if not really good for the time being, and critical pieces of what this defense did last year. Looking at them like they're "bad contracts" and ignoring that 2-3 year window while they're still good...in order to get ready to try to reload for 2020 is just incompetence. You have to strike while the iron is hot when you manage to assemble an elite defense like that. You have to give them enough offensive support to win in that narrow window. You have to at least try, or be willing to roll the dice on various other options if your QB option sucks. Instead, they've kinda married themselves to Bortles like they're building around a franchise QB. When the reality is what you outline there in terms of building around an "average" QB (though that's looking pretty generous at this point). And yet...they didn't even surround him with the proper insulation and depth to succeed even if we concede he is "average" and relies on those around him to carry him. Just taking that breakout season last year...and basically deciding to punt the next 2 years of a window built on an elite defense out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarCrazy2832 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I know Bortles has struggled but dont tell me Eli isn't anything more than an expensive backup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinderFournette Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I don't think that's enough tbh. Teddy is on a 1 year deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedyg Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 13 hours ago, Tugboat said: The notion of the bolded just makes me angry. Like you outlined there, they finally hit on a few major things and got a real defense put together and a real team that has a narrow ~3 year window of impact before age and contract extensions inevitably break it up. Those contracts for Jackson, Calais, even Gipson and Dareus are at least fine, if not really good for the time being, and critical pieces of what this defense did last year. Looking at them like they're "bad contracts" and ignoring that 2-3 year window while they're still good...in order to get ready to try to reload for 2020 is just incompetence. You have to strike while the iron is hot when you manage to assemble an elite defense like that. You have to give them enough offensive support to win in that narrow window. You have to at least try, or be willing to roll the dice on various other options if your QB option sucks. Instead, they've kinda married themselves to Bortles like they're building around a franchise QB. When the reality is what you outline there in terms of building around an "average" QB (though that's looking pretty generous at this point). And yet...they didn't even surround him with the proper insulation and depth to succeed even if we concede he is "average" and relies on those around him to carry him. Just taking that breakout season last year...and basically deciding to punt the next 2 years of a window built on an elite defense out the window. I don't like what they did with Blake but it's not like there were tons of options. It was him or go NUTS to get Cousins. Which, hindsight, is probably a better option right now. I know you aren't a fan of Lamar, but this is also why I wanted him when he fell. We are married to Blake now, for at least another year with no real alternative (Kessler might be arguably better than the current version of Blake were seeing, but not the Blake we saw in playoffs). Had we taken him, we could have had an option should Blake faltered that would have had a few games this season and full time starter next season. By 2020, we cut Blake's salary and only have a rookie salary at QB. That would have been HUGE for our salary issues. Instead, they take Campbell's eventual replacement (who so far looks average). Granted DE usually don't emerge until year 2, but still. In either case, the decision makers decided to roll with Blake. And that's where we are now. I will also say...I brought up Lamar during the draft and a few said that we can't do that because it will create a controversy and split our locker room. Well, thanks to how inept our offense have been... We still have a QB controversy and we still have a split locker room. Only we don't have an option to go to. And i bet this defense would rally behind Lamar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinderFournette Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, Speedyg said: I don't like what they did with Blake but it's not like there were tons of options. It was him or go NUTS to get Cousins. Which, hindsight, is probably a better option right now. I know you aren't a fan of Lamar, but this is also why I wanted him when he fell. We are married to Blake now, for at least another year with no real alternative (Kessler might be arguably better than the current version of Blake were seeing, but not the Blake we saw in playoffs). Had we taken him, we could have had an option should Blake faltered that would have had a few games this season and full time starter next season. By 2020, we cut Blake's salary and only have a rookie salary at QB. That would have been HUGE for our salary issues. Instead, they take Campbell's eventual replacement (who so far looks average). Granted DE usually don't emerge until year 2, but still. In either case, the decision makers decided to roll with Blake. And that's where we are now. I will also say...I brought up Lamar during the draft and a few said that we can't do that because it will create a controversy and split our locker room. Well, thanks to how inept our offense have been... We still have a QB controversy and we still have a split locker room. Only we don't have an option to go to. And i bet this defense would rally behind Lamar... lamar isnt the passer we need when we dont have fournette. yes he would bring explosive plays with his running but honestly i dont see any good QB options that were available to us outside of rudolph(would have been a good fit in round 2 perhaps). i do feel like we could have used that 1st round pick way better tho wether is be a TE like Goedert, a G like Hernandez/corbett but i understand why they picked bryan. instead of going for a single they took a big swing in hopes of hitting a homerun with a raw but highly athletic DL. you can also argue the jags messed up in round 2 picking Chark over guys like Arden Key, Brian O'Neil, Sam Hubbard, Mason Rudolph. think about it now. chark is what our 4th wr right now and if we were fully healthy he would be wr 5 most likely. thats not a good return for year 1 on a 2nd round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedyg Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, LinderFournette said: lamar isnt the passer we need when we dont have fournette. yes he would bring explosive plays with his running but honestly i dont see any good QB options that were available to us outside of rudolph(would have been a good fit in round 2 perhaps). i do feel like we could have used that 1st round pick way better tho wether is be a TE like Goedert, a G like Hernandez/corbett but i understand why they picked bryan. instead of going for a single they took a big swing in hopes of hitting a homerun with a raw but highly athletic DL. you can also argue the jags messed up in round 2 picking Chark over guys like Arden Key, Brian O'Neil, Sam Hubbard, Mason Rudolph. think about it now. chark is what our 4th wr right now and if we were fully healthy he would be wr 5 most likely. thats not a good return for year 1 on a 2nd round pick. No Lamar isn't ready. But drafting him wouldn't be about drafting the most pro ready...because I don't think anyone at that spot (and later) were ready. It was however, about giving us an option. If Bortles failed this season like he is failing now, Lamar would provide some sparks with his running ability while struggling some on the passing game. I doubt it would have been enough to carry this team to the super bowl or even a playoff run. But he would have gotten experience and be more ready for a full run next season before we really have to make some difficult decisions salary wise in 2020. You can even still keep Blake as an expensive backup in that scenario (or cut bait and save 4M while retaining Kessler as backup). By not taking a QB (whether it's Lamar or even Rudolph,though I'm not too high on Rudolph) we really have put all a of our eggs in one Blake Basket. And it's looking pretty rotten right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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