mikemike778 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 On 22/10/2018 at 8:37 PM, CWood21 said: We just threw 3 picks at the WR position, and two of them have produced in limited time. And our highest draft pick at the position really hasn't played. If we invest a high pick into the WR position, I'm going to be super upset. Not quite @Outpost31 upset, but pretty damn close. We invested three late round picks at receiver which equate to around a mid 3rd round pick. We have to see how the rookies get on (its way too early to appoint MVS as the answer) but lets not pretend there has been significant investment in the position. There hasn't - in the last few areas virtually every defensive position has had significantly more draft investment than WR. For me, I would want to see at least 2 of the young guys look legit come the end of the season. If they do then fine and I would be looking more at TE. If not then WR should be in the mix for an early pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemike778 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 For me, the priority this off-season is a re-tool of the Offensive Line. Its fairly straight forward: We have invested a huge amount of money in Rodgers and if he goes down, we go down Its pretty clear Rodgers can no longer absorb hits. Bulaga is decent but it is naïve in the extreme to expect him to last the season. The Guards are fine but JAG-y and the depth looks weak You can scheme around positional weaknesses in defence (for example if your OLBs are crap then you can get pass rush elsewhere) but if people are getting to Rodgers then in reality we are done for. We can invest another 20 early picks on defence but its not going to help if Kizer is behind centre. Now sure are starters are OK and Bulaga 'might' get through the season so maybe you can get by without addressing it. But if Bulaga goes down and it results in Rodgers going down for the season or even worse the slow death of a 6 week injury then nobody should feel sorry for themselves because sometimes you get what you deserve. I think with Rodgers people get complacent that we will always have a top offense. But the reality is most of our players are old and regressing or limited talent and a regressing Rodgers isn't going to be able to do it all by himself. We need some decent draft investment in the offense. The defence has had shed loads of draft investment, its time for it to be relied on instead of continuing to throw every high draft pick at defence and assume offense will be fine because of 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneTwoSixFive Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, mikemike778 said: For me, the priority this off-season is a re-tool of the Offensive Line. Its fairly straight forward: A priority. Pass rushers, Safety, maybe TE (this or next year) are others. We have invested a huge amount of money in Rodgers and if he goes down, we go down. Very likely true Its pretty clear Rodgers can no longer absorb hits. Not at all clear to me that he is any more prone to injury than he used to be. Bulaga is decent but it is naïve in the extreme to expect him to last the season. 'naive in the extreme' is overstating it. Not even sure it would be 50/50. The Guards are fine but JAG-y and the depth looks weak I'd keep Taylor and try to improve at RG. You can scheme around positional weaknesses in defence (for example if your OLBs are crap then you can get pass rush elsewhere) but if people are getting to Rodgers then in reality we are done for. We can invest another 20 early picks on defence but its not going to help if Kizer is behind centre. The o line isn't awful, far from it. I'd like a backup tackle with talent enough to have a chance to be an eventual starter..........like Spriggs, but one that gets better within a year or so of being drafted (hopefully). I'd like a right guard who is solid (Lane Taylor level, or a little better) Now sure are starters are OK and Bulaga 'might' get through the season so maybe you can get by without addressing it. But if Bulaga goes down and it results in Rodgers going down for the season or even worse the slow death of a 6 week injury then nobody should feel sorry for themselves because sometimes you get what you deserve. I think with Rodgers people get complacent that we will always have a top offense. But the reality is most of our players are old and regressing or limited talent and a regressing Rodgers isn't going to be able to do it all by himself. We need some decent draft investment in the offense. The defence has had shed loads of draft investment, its time for it to be relied on instead of continuing to throw every high draft pick at defence and assume offense will be fine because of 12. The Packers and you are on opposite sides of the fence on this. MM says he wants the defense to be better than the offense. The offense (imo) needs a young starter-level TE (could wait until 2020 for that, since they have Graham). They need a tackle and guard, as expressed earlier. They might need a starter-level WR, especially if Cobb is not retained, but we need to see what they have in Moore, MVS and ESB first. On the defensive side, a safety, two pass rushers, and a Montravius Adams type DT, to spell Clark or team up with him. It could even be him, if he can break out by the end of the year. Four guys on offense four on defense, a balanced draft. If the Pack fill half those spots adequately next year, I think they will have done well. Edited October 27, 2018 by OneTwoSixFive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I just don't know why people suddenly think Rodgers is any different regarding injuries. He left two games in 2010 and didn't come back in either of them, and Matt Flynn had to start against the Patriots. Missed 7 games in 2013. Played on a bad leg for the last portion of 2014. Missed 9 games in 2017. What about his career makes people think he's suddenly more injury prone? And for the love of God, why are people acting like our offensive line is the problem? Rodgers has the third most time to throw the ball in the NFL this season. The problem isn't the offensive line, the problem is the offense/Rodgers holding onto the ball too long. Saying we need to retool the offensive line is just ridiculous if you mean anything higher than a 4th round pick. Now I certainly wouldn't complain about a tackle in round two, but it is very far from an absolute need. Considering our best OL - Bakhtiari, Taylor, Lang, Sitton, Linsley, Tretter, etc - were taken after round 2, considering the one outlier in Bulaga, and considering all the busts/disappointments we've had in round2 or higher - Sherrod, Spriggs, Colledge - I really don't know what is going on in the mind of Packer fans to act like we need to make a big investment there. I think it's more likely than not that Cole Madison will be a better player than any offensive lineman we'd draft in round 1 or 2 next year anyway. You maybe draft a tackle if he' the clear cut best player available in one/two, but you absolutely don't go into this draft planning on investing one of your high picks in OL as if it's some sort of glaring need or problem we've had for years now. If there's a position we even slightly reach at in this draft, it's got to be pass rusher or safety. Those two positions we have been consistently weaker at than OL, and those two positions, considering our roster next year, are significantly more important to us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Outpost31 said: And for the love of God, why are people acting like our offensive line is the problem? Rodgers has the third most time to throw the ball in the NFL this season. The problem isn't the offensive line, the problem is the offense/Rodgers holding onto the ball too long. Saying we need to retool the offensive line is just ridiculous if you mean anything higher than a 4th round pick. Now I certainly wouldn't complain about a tackle in round two, but it is very far from an absolute need. Considering our best OL - Bakhtiari, Taylor, Lang, Sitton, Linsley, Tretter, etc - were taken after round 2, considering the one outlier in Bulaga, and considering all the busts/disappointments we've had in round2 or higher - Sherrod, Spriggs, Colledge - I really don't know what is going on in the mind of Packer fans to act like we need to make a big investment there. I think it's more likely than not that Cole Madison will be a better player than any offensive lineman we'd draft in round 1 or 2 next year anyway. Would it be easier for you to understand if we didn't call it a "retool" and called it "we have to have enough guys to field a team ?" If rumors regarding Bulaga are true, he won't be back. You may believe that we are fine at the guard position, but it's been a clear talent drop since Sitton and Lang left. Yes it makes a difference, its 2/5 of your unit. If you have some inside information regarding Madison, please feel free to share it, otherwise you're throwing crap at the wall. Spriggs has yet to show that he can be a trusted starter, and I'm certainly not willing to bet Rodgers health on it. We have been living on the edge and been very lucky with the health of Bahk. I know you want to take like 5 Edge guys, but it isn't gonna happen. OL is a strength of next years draft. One could argue you can get a guy late in the first (with 5 years control) better than guys that went top 10 last year. You can't ignore when talent meets need like that. We have many needs, and OL is pretty high on the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, cannondale said: you want to take like 5 Edge guys, but it isn't gonna happen. OL is a strength of next years draft. One could argue you can get a guy late in the first (with 5 years control) better than guys that went top 10 last year. You can't ignore when talent meets need like that. We have many needs, and OL is pretty high on the list Think this is a case of you seeing that I posted something, and responding before you read what I said. Like a receiver running before he makes the catch. I literally said that if a tackle is BPA, you take them. I have an issue with people thinking we need to go into this draft specifically to take an OL. If we draft for need, OL isn't a need compared to other positions we'd draft first. Edit: I didn't actually say that, but I meant it. I would be okay with a tackle in the first if they were the clear BPA, but if anyone suggests a guard in round 1, I'll lose it. Edited October 27, 2018 by Outpost31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Think this is a case of you seeing that I posted something, and responding before you read what I said. Like a receiver running before he makes the catch. I literally said that if a tackle is BPA, you take them. I have an issue with people thinking we need to go into this draft specifically to take an OL. If we draft for need, OL isn't a need compared to other positions we'd draft first. Well I would consider a blank spot of grass where a RT should be a pretty serious need at a premium position Edited October 27, 2018 by cannondale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 The WR I want the Packers to get this offseason is Geronimo Allison. If we have to draft one, get one of those slippery midget dudes to offset our pretty big WR group. How many OL picks do you guys want? Are we giving up on Patrick, Light, McCray, and Pankey? The TT/MM combo did pretty well at guard, TT is not calling the shots, but he is still in the room. Trust the process, it has been a long time since the Packers have fielded a really bad offensive line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Just now, cannondale said: Well I would consider a blank spot of grass where a RT should be a pretty serious need at a premium position It doesn't work like that though. *The cheapest RT in free agency is worth three times as much as the cheapest EDGE in free agency. *A late first EDGE in the draft is worth more than a mid-first RT in the draft. Therefore, unless you've got a late first EDGE prospect versus a top 10 OT prospect, you take the EDGE in our current situation. We've got probably the bleakest outlook at pass rusher in the NFL going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said: How many OL picks do you guys want? Are we giving up on Patrick, Light, McCray, and Pankey? The TT/MM combo did pretty well at guard, TT is not calling the shots, but he is still in the room. Trust the process, it has been a long time since the Packers have fielded a really bad offensive line. If you're fine trusting Spriggs to protect Rodgers, with 0 backups for him or Bahk - then we're good to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, cannondale said: If you're fine trusting Spriggs to protect Rodgers, with 0 backups for him or Bahk - then we're good to go That would be after Bulaga disappears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: It doesn't work like that though. *The cheapest RT in free agency is worth three times as much as the cheapest EDGE in free agency. *A late first EDGE in the draft is worth more than a mid-first RT in the draft. Therefore, unless you've got a late first EDGE prospect versus a top 10 OT prospect, you take the EDGE in our current situation. We've got probably the bleakest outlook at pass rusher in the NFL going forward. We have 2 first round picks. I've already said I'd go Edge / OT (arguably the 2 strongest positions in the draft) and if a starting caliber S is there in the second I grab him Edited October 27, 2018 by cannondale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Just now, ThatJerkDave said: That would be after Bulaga disappears? Bulaga was asked to take a pay cut and he hasn't heard from the Packers regarding a new contract. What does that tell you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 17 minutes ago, cannondale said: Bulaga was asked to take a pay cut and he hasn't heard from the Packers regarding a new contract. What does that tell you ? Tells me you must have some amazing sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, incognito_man said: Tells me you must have some amazing sources. Nagler and google, and I clearly specified "if rumors are true." Edited October 27, 2018 by cannondale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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