2019 Draft Discussion

[CWood21]

On 10/27/2018 at 1:24 PM, cannondale said:

Bulaga was asked to take a pay cut and he hasn't heard from the Packers regarding a new contract. What does that tell you ?

That the threat to force a paycut only works if you have a possible replacement.  Who exactly were they going to replace Bryan Bulaga with?  Jason Spriggs?  Byron Bell?  The list wasn't very good.  There was no reason for Bulaga to accept a paycut.

[MacReady]

Just now, CWood21 said:

The Packers are also a statistical anomaly when it comes to OL.  We've had ridiculous amount of success with mid-round OL.  I mean, look at all the non-1st round OL that the Vikings have taken over the years: Marcus Johnson, Ryan Cook, John Sullivan, Phil Loadholt, Chris DeGeare, Demarcus Love, Brandon Fusco, Jeff Baca, Travis Bond, David Yankey, TJ Clemmings, Tyrus Thompson, Austin Shepard, Willie Beavers, Pat Elflein, and Danny Isidora.  The Vikings have gotten a few career journeymen out of their mid-round OL picks.  We've gotten a few All-Pros and a few more high quality starters.  We've been unusually lucky with our OL selections.

Which is why I don't worry about it.  Whatever people have to say about McCarthy, his staff is consistently great at turning otherwise meh talent into good players.  Something people would realllllllllly start to miss if McCarthy suddenly got fired. 

[CWood21]

On 10/27/2018 at 2:16 PM, Outpost31 said:

I'm sorry, but if the talent matches the picks, I'm double dipping at EDGE in the first.  Two shots at a hit, and if both hit we're in commanding position for the next five years.

Sure.  If that's the case, I don't have a huge issue with that.  But realistically, what do you think the odds of that happening are?  I mean, going back the last few years with the exception of TJ Watt, when was the last time an EDGE was the BPA (or even in that tier)?  You could make an argument for Marcus Davenport I suppose, but aside from that the EDGE class dries up quick.

[CWood21]

7 minutes ago, Arthur Penske said:

Is that accounting for the first few games he didn't really play in?

Yes.  Taking his current stats, dividing it by the 7 games he has played in, and multiplying it by the 16 games in a season.

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Penske said:

Its very early and a lot can happen in between now and the draft, but how big would  "hitting" (at least somewhat) on Jaire, MVS, Jackson, Graham, and maybe EQ and Moore be for 2019? If those guys wouldn't have been looking to pan out the amount of positions Gutey would have needed to address would have been bad with Cobb, Matthews, ect possibly leaving this offseason. Obviously, EDGE and some other positions still need to be addressed via free agency/draft, but the packers are going to have some freedom to do interesting things in the draft/FA this offeason. 

Toss in the potential of Burks and Madison (maaaaaaybe) and I'm encouraged for the future.

Honestly, hitting on the WRs is probably going to be the biggest thing to take from last offseason.  We threw a bunch of mid-round picks at the position last year, and we've got MVS who looks like a keeper, ESB has shown flashes of brilliance, and the jury is still out on J'Mon Moore.  The two guys we used a 5th and 6th round pick could potentially be starting WRs next year.  That's tremendous value.  You expect your first few round picks to hit, but the fact that the Packers are getting production out of their mid-round picks is HUGE.  When the Packers were at their high point, they were getting strong value from those picks.  In recent years, the Packers weren't getting that.  From 2014 through 2017, the best players the Packers had gotten in the mid-rounds (3rd through 5th) were Corey Linsley, Blake Martinez, and Jamaal Williams.  Good players, but none who are going to change a team.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Which is why I don't worry about it.  Whatever people have to say about McCarthy, his staff is consistently great at turning otherwise meh talent into good players.  Something people would realllllllllly start to miss if McCarthy suddenly got fired. 

There's no perfect situation.  If we continue to roll with McCarthy, we're going to have these offensive issues that we've seen.  If we move on, we're getting rid of some good coaches.

[Arthur Penske]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Honestly, hitting on the WRs is probably going to be the biggest thing to take from last offseason.  We threw a bunch of mid-round picks at the position last year, and we've got MVS who looks like a keeper, ESB has shown flashes of brilliance, and the jury is still out on J'Mon Moore.  The two guys we used a 5th and 6th round pick could potentially be starting WRs next year.  That's tremendous value.  You expect your first few round picks to hit, but the fact that the Packers are getting production out of their mid-round picks is HUGE.  When the Packers were at their high point, they were getting strong value from those picks.  In recent years, the Packers weren't getting that.  From 2014 through 2017, the best players the Packers had gotten in the mid-rounds (3rd through 5th) were Corey Linsley, Blake Martinez, and Jamaal Williams.  Good players, but none who are going to change a team.

Agreed. But don't forget Aaron Jones.

[Packerraymond]

21 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Which is why I don't worry about it.  Whatever people have to say about McCarthy, his staff is consistently great at turning otherwise meh talent into good players.  Something people would realllllllllly start to miss if McCarthy suddenly got fired. 

Elaborate?

Cause I don't see this. Sometimes draft position doesn't reflect true talent. Bahktiari is a mid round pick, but is freakishly gifted genetically when it comes to foot quickness and lower body flexibility. Sitton and Lang were quite gifted too. Taylor and McCray aren't but they aren't close to the players the other were.

On defense it's the opposite, I feel like we let talented player after talented player look like meh here and go on to show talent elsewhere.

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Elaborate?

Cause I don't see this. Sometimes draft position doesn't reflect true talent. Bahktiari is a mid round pick, but is freakishly gifted genetically when it comes to foot quickness and lower body flexibility. Sitton and Lang were quite gifted too. Taylor and McCray aren't but they aren't close to the players the other were.

On defense it's the opposite, I feel like we let talented player after talented player look like meh here and go on to show talent elsewhere.

Bakh went exactly where he was supposed to go, and there were many who thought he was going to have to be kicked inside to guard.  Nobody projected him to be a top 3 LT.  You have to give credit where credit is due.

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Bakh went exactly where he was supposed to go, and there were many who thought he was going to have to be kicked inside to guard.  Nobody projected him to be a top 3 LT.  You have to give credit where credit is due.

Bahk is not never was a "meh" talent. Again, I'll say it, your draft position doesn't indicate talent. Look at MVS and EQ.

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Bahk is not never was a "meh" talent. Again, I'll say it, your draft position doesn't indicate talent. Look at MVS and EQ.

We were talking about what the Packers invested versus what they got out of those picks.  NOBODY thought that David Bakhtiari would be a top 5 OT.  Nobody thought that Josh Sitton would arguably be a top 5 OG.  Nobody thought that T.J. Lang would be a great OG.  The credit has to go to the coaching staff for developing them.  Bakh wasn't a very good prospect.  He's been an amazing pro.

[Packerraymond]

14 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

We were talking about what the Packers invested versus what they got out of those picks.  NOBODY thought that David Bakhtiari would be a top 5 OT.  Nobody thought that Josh Sitton would arguably be a top 5 OG.  Nobody thought that T.J. Lang would be a great OG.  The credit has to go to the coaching staff for developing them.  Bakh wasn't a very good prospect.  He's been an amazing pro.

Elite traits aren't developed in my opinion. They're unlocked, does our staff deserve credit for that? Absolutely. However Bahk had the ability to play the way he plays now at Col. We didn't  take some heavy footed, small OT and turn him into the best  pass blocker in the NFL. I'm arguing Outpost's point that Mac turns players with meh ability into good players. Just because a guy needed some tweaking and went in the mid rounds doesn't mean he isn't talented. I'm fairly confident any good coaching staff unlocks potential ability that a player has yet to showcase at the pro level. This isn't some rare gift of this staff.

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Elite traits aren't developed in my opinion. They're unlocked, does our staff deserve credit for that? Absolutely. However Bahk had the ability to play the way he plays now at Col. We didn't  take some heavy footed, small OT and turn him into the best  pass blocker in the NFL. I'm arguing Outpost's point that Mac turns players with meh ability into good players. Just because a guy needed some tweaking and went in the mid rounds doesn't mean he isn't talented. I'm fairly confident any good coaching staff unlocks potential ability that a player has yet to showcase at the pro level. This isn't some rare gift of this staff.

Bakh wasn't an elite pass protector at Colorado.  If that were the case, he would have gone well higher than he did.  He was viewed as a guy who didn't offer much in the run game, and wasn't viewed as a great pass protector.  He was the classic of that good, but not great prospects.  The OL coaching staff has managed to outproduce their draft slots.  You have to give them credit.

[Packerraymond]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Bakh wasn't an elite pass protector at Colorado.  If that were the case, he would have gone well higher than he did.  He was viewed as a guy who didn't offer much in the run game, and wasn't viewed as a great pass protector.  He was the classic of that good, but not great prospects.  The OL coaching staff has managed to outproduce their draft slots.  You have to give them credit.

You are arguing a point that I've never said so this is pretty pointless. Argument isn't whether or not the OL coach deserves credit.

Were Bahk, Sitton, Lang, Linsley "meh" talent to you? Yes or no.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You are arguing a point that I've never said so this is pretty pointless. Argument isn't whether or not the OL coach deserves credit.

Were Bahk, Sitton, Lang, Linsley "meh" talent to you? Yes or no.

As prospects?  Yes.