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2019 Draft Discussion

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On 9/18/2018 at 1:34 PM, AlexGreen#20 said:

CMJ should be a bannable offense, not only does it show ignorance in getting the player wrong, it shows historical ignorance of one of the best Linebackers ever.

Also, don't we already have a draft thread?

Good luck. I've called out @jleisher for this no fewer than 14 times already.

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7 hours ago, beekay414 said:

He's not a game breaker at all with his speed. I'm willing to bet he's a 4.6 guy and, at his size, that's not great. 

What makes you say that?  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering where you're getting that from.  Watching his game tape he sure looks fast.  His reported 40 time is sub 4.4, but we'll find out for sure if he can actually run that at his pro day on the 27th, but he sure doesn't look slow on film.  Either way, that's not even his biggest asset.

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1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

Good luck. I've called out @jleisher for this no fewer than 14 times already.

Well, considering the source, it shouldn't surprise you at all.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, deathstar said:

People should prepare for Jerry Tillery @ 12.

A little high for me but if they think he could be similar to a guy like Chris Jones then I wouldn't be upset. I have liked Tillery for awhile now but at pick 44; it seems like he is rising. We have needed a 5-tech type of player who can penetrate and get after the passer for quite some time. I would also argue it is the most important position on our defense. 

Would anyone be able to compare how Jerry Tillery stacks up against a guy like Anthony Nelson from Iowa? 

 

 

Edited by Victor1124

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Victor1124 said:

A little high for me but if they think he could be similar to a guy like Chris Jones then I wouldn't be upset. I have liked Tillery for awhile now but at pick 44; it seems like he is rising. We have needed a 5-tech type of player who can penetrate and get after the passer for quite some time. I would also argue it is the most important position on our defense. Would anyone be able to compare how Jerry Tillery stacks up against a guy like Anthony Nelson from Iowa? 

I posted a breakdown of Tillery (from the draft network) a short while ago.
Tillery is classified as DL - Nelson is classified as EDGE

Anthony Nelson  6'7" / 271#

He's ranked at the 18th best EDGE and 140th best 2019 prospect.

Burst - Not explosive off the ball. Rarely the first defender off the ball, doesn't threaten with burst or speed to force oversets from opponents. Second step is better than his first, but overall does not possess the arc speed to concern tackles.

Bend - Limited on the outside edge track by his lack of bend. Stiff in the hips and can be pushed up the arc past the pocket even in recovery mode. Does everything he can to soften the edge and create better angles for himself, but even in those situations his feet/hips remain pointed up the field at the apex too often. Does flash some ankle flexibility to tilt the edge through contact on rip moves. Flashes of ability to dip under punches at the top of the arc.

Rush Moves - Can convert speed-to-power at a solid rate, driving tackles back into the pocket with fully extended arms, impressive leg drive and good enough pad level. Big concern: Is he explosive enough off the ball to conjure up the force needed to displace much better talent when he bull rushes? Has a bevy of moves that he uses to soften the edge, including the rare ******-and-swim. Cross chops, fake long arms, rip and push-pulls are frequent. Doesn't look that strong, but has tossed many tackles with push-pull. Strings moves together well, but could be more sudden in his movements.

Counters - Fluid thinker on his feet, takes advantage of oversets to alter his plan to inside moves if the path is available. Active hands to constantly search for the advantageous track to the pocket. Doesn't have the change of direction or fluid spin move to get quick wins off pass sets mistakes.

Run Defense - In space, there will be some questions, but at the point-of-attack, Nelson consistently tossed around opponents in a phone booth. Fires off the ball with full arm extension, perfect hand placement and relatively low pads. Keeps his frame clean and excels at shedding blocks. Few double teams that he saw drove him off the ball, pad level is good, but so long and lanky that elite technicians can create some movement on him if they break his hands. David Edwards and Wisconsin's trey blocks got him moving a couple times.

Lateral Mobility - Labored mover in space. Primary concern as a run-defending edge is his lack of range to the boundary when the run gets outside of him. Tight in the hips laterally and can struggle to open and pursue quickly.

Mental Processing/Vision - Recognizes when a tackle has overset and will try to dip back inside of them. Block recognition is excellent, will fight playside and is difficult to pin down due to length and hand usage. Steps down well in unblocked situations, could be more violent taking on pullers, but looked like Iowa taught wrong-arm technique over box on the edge.

Tackling/Finishing - No issues here. Not a big hitter, but long arms allow him to consistently finish outside his frame. Has the length to create strip-sacks at the top of the arc with his reach, but didn't force any fumbles last year.

Competitive Toughness - Extremely physical and desired path to the quarterback is through his opponent. Motor and physicality are not a question mark. High character prospect who excelled academically.

Athleticism/Size - Unbelievable length and frame. A little bit lanky and could stand to add some bulk. Athletically average best. Combine will be crucial to his draft stock.

BEST TRAIT - Hand Usage

WORST TRAIT - Burst/Bend

RED FLAGS - None

Anthony Nelson has impressive tape and eye-popping physical traits, but his athletic limitations are evident enough as a pass rusher that you wonder where the full-time fit is for him in the NFL. Despite his lack of explosiveness (very average first step) and bend (tight in the hips), Nelson still manages to corner at an impressive rate against college competition due to a wonderful bevy of rush moves off the edge.

Will those Ws continue at the NFL level, where pass rush athleticism is vital to the success of most edge rushers? Even if Nelson never becomes a double-digit sack artist, which I don't expect him to, he's a valuable and safe mid-round addition who can bring impressive run defense, interior nickel rush ability and high character to an organization. Hopefully we get to see him play inside a bit during Senior Bowl week.

Edited by Leader

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1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

Good luck. I've called out @jleisher for this no fewer than 14 times already.

Glad you agree, not sure why you waited 6 months on it though lol

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12 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Glad you agree, not sure why you waited 6 months on it though lol

LMFAO

I accidentally clicked page one instead of last page. Explains why I was a little confused at the conversation.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, deathstar said:

He’s literally the best pass rushing DT in the draft.

Because he had more sacks on a stout DL? Nah. Give me Oliver and Simmons over him all day. 

Edited by beekay414

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3 hours ago, MaximusGluteus said:

What makes you say that?  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering where you're getting that from.  Watching his game tape he sure looks fast.  His reported 40 time is sub 4.4, but we'll find out for sure if he can actually run that at his pro day on the 27th, but he sure doesn't look slow on film.  Either way, that's not even his biggest asset.

He doesn't look like he's that quick. I just dont see game breaking speed when I watch him. He takes a bit to accelerate. He's nimble so he makes people miss but he's not really a HR threat. 

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5 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Because he had more sacks on a stout DL? Nah. Give me Oliver and Simmons over him all day. 

No, because hes got the best hands along with being elite athletically. Because he won the most in pass rushing situations last year. Not sure you can justify Oliver over him wrt pass rush.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Leader said:

@CWood21 - you'd indicated you'd select Nasir Adderley at 30. I was wondering your thoughts on Chauncey Gardner-Johnson and how the players compare. If both were available at 30 - you'd select Adderley?

@CWood21 (or anyone else who feels like commenting). Looking at FS types you can add Juan Thornhill and Darnell Savage to that list.  I'd be interested in Amani Oruwariye there as well, though it would be a position change from CB.

I have seen some pundits that thought Adderley was overrated, as a late 1st to early 2nd round pick,  but I don't really know how he stacks up against these guys.  

I'm wondering  whether a true FS type is so necessary now, with the addition of Amos. Maybe it is the much easier just to pair him with an easier-to-find box safety.

Finally I'm pushing something I have mentioned months ago, Josh Jackson at safety, it just seems to suit his game so well (though I would only consider that seriously if he didn't look so good at CB in his second year). 

While we do still need more help at safety, Amos as FS and J.Jones at SS might work pretty well (given Jones was improving late last year). T.Will is a default option to help out. If there was also a plan to push Jackson to safety in camp (which would be earlier than I would do it), we could be in the very surprising situation of getting a CB early in the draft (yet again).

Edited by OneTwoSixFive

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, deathstar said:

No, because hes got the best hands along with being elite athletically. Because he won the most in pass rushing situations last year. Not sure you can justify Oliver over him wrt pass rush.

Because he flat out didnt see the attention Oliver did by opposing OL. Oliver also has the better hands. Dude's hands are incredibly violent. Also arguable that Simmons hands are better. But, I mean, if you wanna focus on just one aspect of their respective games to try and make Tillery look better, that's fine. I'll take the complete package that Oliver offers. Tillery is a fine player but he's not on par with Oliver and Simmons as prospects. Simmons gets a knock for the ACL but, god damn, is he good. 

Is what it is.

Edited by beekay414

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4 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Because he flat out didnt see the attention Oliver did by opposing OL. Oliver also has the better hands. Dude's hands are incredibly violent. Also arguable that Simmons hands are better. But, I mean, if you wanna focus on just one aspect of their respective games to try and make Tillery look better, that's fine. I'll take the complete package that Oliver offers. 

Is what it is.

Your argument against Tillery is that he produced a lot and isn’t as good as Oliver. Okay.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, deathstar said:

Your argument against Tillery is that he produced a lot and isn’t as good as Oliver. Okay.

He produced 7 sacks last year, yes. He did NOT produce as much as Oliver. Oliver put up 53 TFL in his 3 seasons compared to Tillery's 23 over 3+. He also put up more sacks over his 3 years than Tillery did. Tillery isn't in Oliver's league as a playmaker.

But carry on. 

Edited by beekay414

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4 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

He produced 7 sacks last year, yes. He did NOT produce as much as Oliver. Oliver put up 53 TFL in his 3 seasons compared to Tillery's 23 over 3+. He also put up more sacks over his 3 years than Tillery did. Tillery isn't in Oliver's league as a playmaker.

But carry on. 

So your argument against Tillery is that Oliver is good. Okay.

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