agree?

[3rivers]

 

I normally can't stomach herd but he has some stats and points here. It's  bad when another coach says this team is a circus , but when is this going to end is what we all want to know.

[August4th]

only agree about the defense falling off under tomlin

the overall team success in the last 5 yrs is similar or better than any 5 yr period under cowher. cowhers teams found themselves in the news for off the field behavior too, but they didn't have social media back then to put gasoline on it. I've been wondering what kind of news we would of gotten if social media was around with a young Joey Porter, Plax and Ben etc during the mid-00s...

 

[VigilantZombie]

I actually completely agree from the defensive standpoint. Tomlin and Colbert have failed to build a defense capable of winning in the playoffs in clutch moments let alone a SB. 

The circus doesnt stop until they win. It doesnt stay gone until they win a SB.

As far as Mike Tomlin lacking discipline that is real. That is a fact. And it is proven by the repeated actions of guys like Le'Veon Bell and Antonio Brown. I'm not defending Le'Veon Bell but as a head coach part of your job is to manage the distractions. Even some really bad teams in the league don't have the amount of distractions that the Pittsburgh Steelers currently have. What time when does not have control over what his players do or do not say to the media. He does not have control over how he's players handle adversity and Antonio Brown not showing up on Monday is prime example.

I'm not saying that Mike Tomlin should be fired but I am saying that I think people should stop acting like it's a conversation that doesn't deserve to be had.

The same goes for Kevin Colbert. Neither one of these guys have in recent years truly accomplished what they were hired to accomplish. Kevin Colbert when you look at the defense you can point the cam Heyward you can point to Stephon Tuitt who by the way we should not over rate his ability and potentially TJ Watt. Those are the defensive players right now will be here in 5 years. Obviously I could easily be wrong but if I'm not then it is pretty telling of how poor of a job Kevin Colbert has done on the defensive side of a drafting NFL Talent when only two players that I mentioned would have been first-round picks the other would have been a second round pick and at least three players currently starting on our defense if I am right would no longer be on the team that were drafted by Kevin Colburn in the first round.

If we are going to suggest that Mike Tomlin had more power when it came to the draft then it is also equally telling how poorly he has judged talent in the draft and how poorly he has coached that Talent.

In the present day this team was truly a couple of legitimate linebackers and some secondary help away from being a true Super Bowl contender. Instead of going out and getting those things they drafted a third-round Prospect in the first round even starting at safety and a run stopping only inside linebacker. They also added an injury-prone safety who thus far has not been able to remain healthy. Therefore they literally did not improve the defense at all.

I am hopeful that this team will turn it around and start winning games and make it to the playoffs. I am not naive enough to believe that this team is a Super Bowl contender. However there is a real possibility that this team ends up picking in the top 10 of next year's NFL draft and if that is the case I'm sorry but someone deserves to lose their job. Is that person Mike Tomlin, Keith Butler, or Kevin Colbert?

To be completely honest I'm not sure I do believe it will be one of them and right now my feeling is that it would be or maybe should be Kevin Colbert AND Keith Butler. honestly however at some point Mike tomlin's job being in Jeopardy has got to be a real conversation and honestly as much as I like Mike Tomlin that conversation needs to be had sooner rather than later

[JLambert58]

While I do sometimes agree with Cowherd and find him insightful, other times I find him a blowhard who paints with a broad and inaccurate brush. (pun intended)  I think this is a little bit of both.  While YES there is some truth that Cowher/LeBeau's defense was much closer to elite most years, it is also true that the league has changed in the last 10 years.  I think Tomlin/Butler/Colbert are still trying to catch up with it.   With the rule changes, offenses are getting a much more significant advantage than they were getting during the Cowher era.

At the same time, Cowher's teams were wildly inconsistent with 1998-2000 being a dark period (7-9, 6-10, 9-7) to say nothing of his underachieving in the playoffs.  I do have to say I loved his brand of football and the team identity during his tenure.  They were lacking quality consistent QB play on offense during much of that time.  

Tomlin could easily have won 3 SBs by now.  He HAS underachieved as well, but it is hard to win it all in this league especially with Belichick and Brady ruining dreams year after year.  

The Steelers have won 3 playoff games in the past 3 years.  Did that playoff loss to JAX last year stink to high heaven?  Absolutely.  Does Tomlin deserve a lot of blame?  Absolutely.  But to say that Tomlin has been riding the much superior Cowher's coattails all these years is beyond ridiculous.  As I have said before, at least half the teams / fanbases in the league would kill for the kind of mediocrity that our spoiled fanbase cries about year in and year out. 

Does Tomlin need to fix the defense?  An emphatic YES.  But is he a bad coach that needs to be tossed out with the proverbial bath water?  An emphatic NO.  

[MOSteelers56]

Also, something to keep in mind. Tomlin has been hamstrung a bit by Ben his entire career. Ben has been amongst the highest paid QBs since (off the top of my head) 08. This greatly reduces the ability of the team to assemble a top flight defense. Look at all those great defenses of the last  10 years. The common thread with them is having a QB on his rookie deal. 

Rams, Vikes - until Cousins, Seahawks until a couple years ago, Jags, Texans, Cardinals, Eagles, even the Manning Broncos only did what they did because they were hemorrhaging money.

[3rivers]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Also, something to keep in mind. Tomlin has been hamstrung a bit by Ben his entire career. Ben has been amongst the highest paid QBs since (off the top of my head) 08. This greatly reduces the ability of the team to assemble a top flight defense. Look at all those great defenses of the last  10 years. The common thread with them is having a QB on his rookie deal. 

Rams, Vikes - until Cousins, Seahawks until a couple years ago, Jags, Texans, Cardinals, Eagles, even the Manning Broncos only did what they did because they were hemorrhaging money.

some have said that the mega deals QB's get ultimately is the teams limiting factor in getting better because they consume too much cap space and the rest is history.  We can sit here daily (and have been for a while) saying how we would fix the D etc, but until all 11 people on the field are on the same page, it doesn't matter who is out there or what scheme is called. Is there a stat for the number of miscommunications for a D? I would expect we are leading by quite a margin every year for going on 4 years now. Right now more than anything (all drama included), the team needs to get the D on the same page first, it's something I can't understand and can't recall seeing occur with regularity  either.  

The mega deal QB's need to win when the D is bad,  but that hasn't happened here. Ben isn't entirely to fault, because how much do they expect him to score. 37 or 42 points should be enough but when many of those points are in garbage time a they say, it makes me think the game should never get to 21-0 in the first quarter. This team had had issues not showing up front he beginning of games too often, that is something else that needs to be fixed. 

A win and a running game helps all this but will it happen enough this season? The schedule isn't easy as it was last year,  so what do you see as the range of wins this team gets the way it is right now?

[VigilantZombie]

At what point does Tomlin not being an effective enough head coach become a real conversation?

 

[MOSteelers56]

20 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

At what point does Tomlin not being an effective enough head coach become a real conversation?

 

Seeing as people have been blathering about it since day one with his hard TC stuff, I’d say about 11 years ago.

[VigilantZombie]

12 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Seeing as people have been blathering about it since day one with his hard TC stuff, I’d say about 11 years ago.

I'm asking when it is appropriate to have conversation not when people started overreacting about it.

[JLambert58]

1 hour ago, wwhickok said:

At what point does Tomlin not being an effective enough head coach become a real conversation?

 

It can be a real conversation anytime.  But let's not forget that he is a 116-61-1 career coach in the NFL. A .654 regular season winning  percentage.  

Let's compare him to other top coaches in the history of the league:

Bill Belichick .682

George Hallas .671

Don Shula .665

Mike Tomlin .654

Tony Dungy .652

Joe Gibbs .629

Mike McCarthy .627

Curly Lambeau .623

Bill Cowher .619

Paul Brown .616

Tom Landry .601

Chuck Noll .572

Bill Parcells .570

 

Is he a perfect coach?  Nope.  Could he be MORE effective?  Definitely.

Honest question:  Who would you rather have coaching the team? 

[3rivers]

2 hours ago, wwhickok said:

At what point does Tomlin not being an effective enough head coach become a real conversation?

 

I would say after multiple futile losses to the same team (pats) . They beat the pats in 2011, then want back to their old ways, so that right there was it for me.  The BS and drama of today is a cancer and that won't get better  and at best will stagnate .  He hasn't had help in the draft  in recent years , that is to his defence unless he had a major say in these picks, we don't know that.

All I ask of him is to end the drama BS and get the secondary on the same page. If the safeties are to blame, then trade or bench to get that fixed.  Same applies to CB because letting this go on is like wasting a season.

Playing down to competition could be also on tomlin, but there are other constants  that could be blamed.  

[3rivers]

39 minutes ago, JLambert58 said:

It can be a real conversation anytime.  But let's not forget that he is a 116-61-1 career coach in the NFL. A .654 regular season winning  percentage.  

Let's compare him to other top coaches in the history of the league:

Bill Belichick .682

George Hallas .671

Don Shula .665

Mike Tomlin .654

Tony Dungy .652

Joe Gibbs .629

Mike McCarthy .627

Curly Lambeau .623

Bill Cowher .619

Paul Brown .616

Tom Landry .601

Chuck Noll .572

Bill Parcells .570

 

Is he a perfect coach?  Nope.  Could he be MORE effective?  Definitely.

Honest question:  Who would you rather have coaching the team? 

While stats can help , they are misleading here. I had issues with some of  cowher's  ways, but I think he would have this team a bit better than we haver seen in recent time, but not much. 

In the above, I would agree when BB says stats are for losers. 

Interesting post JL58, and I hope you understand my view, nothing personal . 

 

[VigilantZombie]

43 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

I would say after multiple futile losses to the same team (pats) . They beat the pats in 2011, then want back to their old ways, so that right there was it for me.  The BS and drama of today is a cancer and that won't get better  and at best will stagnate .  He hasn't had help in the draft  in recent years , that is to his defence unless he had a major say in these picks, we don't know that.

All I ask of him is to end the drama BS and get the secondary on the same page. If the safeties are to blame, then trade or bench to get that fixed.  Same applies to CB because letting this go on is like wasting a season.

Playing down to competition could be also on tomlin, but there are other constants  that could be blamed.  

Right now, that's one of my biggest gripes, being able to control the locker room is a big responsibility of a head coach and yes, nearly every team has it's moments but for Pittsburgh, it has been ongoing for multiple seasons, but it is now at an all time high and it's something that has got to change quickly.  It can't just be about "being in a slump" that's a sign of immaturity. 

I think Boswell is a sign that the entire team is in a slump, it's kind of in a rut that it's struggling to climb out of but if it can, things can be great.  But if Tomlin is unable to regain control of this team and steer them in the right direction, then I'm sorry but what he has done previously is almost irrelevant and the question has to be, is this the guy we want leading us in the future?

[JLambert58]

59 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

While stats can help , they are misleading here. I had issues with some of  cowher's  ways, but I think he would have this team a bit better than we haver seen in recent time, but not much. 

In the above, I would agree when BB says stats are for losers. 

Interesting post JL58, and I hope you understand my view, nothing personal . 

 

The stats do not tell the whole story, but they do tell a story.   Putting Tomlin's career in historical context is a valuable tool given the current environment where a lot of fans are saying the sky is falling and that Tomlin should be fired.

Every coach, great and not-so-great have had their issues.   In this era of microscopic scrutiny, modern coaches are not only dealing with football and team issues, but with waves and waves of media backlash, as well.  In eras past, coaches were not as heavily scrutinized as they are now.  And additionally, fans and media are now more knowledgeable than they have ever been.  So the weaknesses and flaws are magnified and broadcast far and wide.    

We've seen many coaches crumble under that kind of pressure.  Tomlin, while flawed, is more than capable of handling his job imo.  His record is only one measuring stick, but an important one. 

 

[warfelg]

I hate Colin Cowherd and people that do 'outside looking in'.