Around the NFL II - Even NFLier

[TecmoSuperJoe]

I see a lot of fans are ticked the 49ers weren't in on the deal. Or didn't get something done for Brown. I can understand, as he went for a 3rd and 5th rounder. For someone of his stature, even at 31 years old, that's a trade you should probably pull the trigger on. Personally, I'm indifferent about it. Yes, it would have been exciting to have Brown, but at the same time he's getting paid $54 million over the next three seasons with his next contract. That's insane to me. Also, he just seems like a diva to the max. Maybe you make that trade if you already know your quarterback in place is dependable, and your overall team has proven they are a playoff contender. Something to get you to the Super Bowl. I don't know how he'll fit with the Raiders. He'll probably put up numbers, but they could still be bad. I'd have rather kept Mack, and have him get his monster deal than have Brown. I was ticked we missed out on that. This, not really. If Jimmy G fails, I don't think it's going to be because of not having a HOF receiver. The quarterbacks make the receivers more so than the receivers making the quarterback. That being said, the coaching staff needs to restock the WR position. Goodwin is injury prone, and Pettis is unproven, maybe injury prone himself. People might calm down if they get one of those highly touted rookies with their second round pick. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by PapaShogun

[y2lamanaki]

7 hours ago, N4L said:

honestly, if we werent at least involved in these talks, I will be irate. We have the cap space to give AB the same contract.

I'm okay if we weren't involved if there is truth to the persistent OBJ rumors. 

[Forge]

7 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I'm okay if we weren't involved if there is truth to the persistent OBJ rumors. 

Have there been any rumors about us actually being involved in OBJ talks? Because the thing is, I haven't heard that. All I've basically heard is the same Florio type drivel that we would be interested. But so far as I know, there hasn't been any chatter whatsoever about us actually talking to the Giants about a potential trade. Maybe I've missed something?  I've heard the Browns have talked to them. I've even heard the Patriots have talked to them about OBJ. Right now, we seem to be tied to this scuttle through nothing more than "yes, the 49ers would be interested" and "the 49ers really making a logical landing spot". It's why I really put no stock in right now and don't think OBJ is going anywhere. 

[y2lamanaki]

27 minutes ago, Forge said:

Have there been any rumors about us actually being involved in OBJ talks? Because the thing is, I haven't heard that. All I've basically heard is the same Florio type drivel that we would be interested. But so far as I know, there hasn't been any chatter whatsoever about us actually talking to the Giants about a potential trade. Maybe I've missed something?  I've heard the Browns have talked to them. I've even heard the Patriots have talked to them about OBJ. Right now, we seem to be tied to this scuttle through nothing more than "yes, the 49ers would be interested" and "the 49ers really making a logical landing spot". It's why I really put no stock in right now and don't think OBJ is going anywhere. 

That's why they are rumors and not news.

[Forge]

4 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

That's why they are rumors and not news.

But they aren't even rumors, that's kind of what I'm saying. 

[John232]

I am 100% fine not getting AB. 3rd and a 5th is a discount, but paying a 31 year old receiver 19 million a year, when it's very likely he's about to start declining, is not a great use of money. Especially for us when have so many positions we need to fill and fortify. Not to mention, we're already lacking in draft capital. 

 

Add in what appears to be some pretty bad behavior..doesn't feel like we're going to really miss out on anything. Shanny can make any receiver competent, so I really don't think he's a missing piece for our passing game. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 minutes ago, John232 said:

I am 100% fine not getting AB. 3rd and a 5th is a discount, but paying a 31 year old receiver 19 million a year, when it's very likely he's about to start declining, is not a great use of money. Especially for us when have so many positions we need to fill and fortify. Not to mention, we're already lacking in draft capital. 

 

Add in what appears to be some pretty bad behavior..doesn't feel like we're going to really miss out on anything. Shanny can make any receiver competent, so I really don't think he's a missing piece for our passing game. 

Decline as what exactly? Do you questions if he will be elite for the next two years? Because I don’t. AB is a stud who is going to stay elite for the duration of the deal. And I believe they can get out of the deal after the first two years. 

No other way to put it other than the Raiders got him for a great deal. 

[John232]

12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Decline as what exactly? Do you questions if he will be elite for the next two years? Because I don’t. AB is a stud who is going to stay elite for the duration of the deal. And I believe they can get out of the deal after the first two years. 

No other way to put it other than the Raiders got him for a great deal. 

 

Never said they didn't get a great deal. I just think the same deal with us would have much different ramifications and I'm glad we didn't do it. 

Raiders got a great deal, no doubt. But most receivers start declining around this time. Brown will still be elite next year and possibly the year after, but I don't think Carr is going to be getting him the ball the same way Ben did. So I'm not sure his production will necessarily reflect elite. Regardless, receivers start to drop off around the early 30's, it's going to happen to Brown at some point. Maybe he's Jerry 2.0..but only time will tell. 

 

Good deal though if they can get out of it after the first two. That said, I don't think this moves makes the raiders competitive in the division, they're in a rebuilding phase and I'd be more inclined to keep the picks. But that deal is just way too good to pass up, so I get why they did it. Plus they have loads of picks. 

 

edit: Also hard to overlook how dickish his behavior was..it definitely gave me pause on some level. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by John232

[757-NINER]

I don't get this fasincation of trading for a top 3 WR as some justification that we're on the right path or that this regime is serious about winning. Maybe it's just the old school in me but I appreciate creating a team-first culture and cultivating a roster through the draft as the catalyst to sustainable long-term success in the NFL. I have no issues with plugging some holes through free agency and supplementing your roster with free agents. But I'm not a huge fan of trading mutiple premium picks for talented, yet flawed, me-first type of players. This is a very young roster with a mix of some very good veteran leadership in players like Staley and Sherman. You have to be careful with the types of personalities you add to the mix. They don't all have to be choir boys but at the very least, they should be guys you feel will put the team before themselves. I have never gotten the impression from AB nor OBJ that they are team first individuals. So us NOT pursuing deals for either is exactly what I want to hear.

And honestly, I'm not a believer that a #1 WR catapults this team into some new offensive stratosphere. Adding the right talent and skill-set can be just as effective as adding elite talent...

Do we need to add more talent to WR position? Yes.

Is trading for the OBJ and AB's of the world the best way to acquire said talent? No.

WR is just not a position that I think is hurting the overall success of the team like I feel other positions are. Now if this were about potentially trading for Von Miller or Jalen Ramsey count me as guy who would be just as critical as some of you are about not being involved. But I just don't see the need to address the WR group in this manner, with a lot of other positions, mainly on the defensive side, in much more of a critical state.

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by 757-NINER

[John232]

I'm also of the opinion now that getting elite receivers (like OBJ level) is not a requirement to having an elite offense. I just don't think WR is a premium position. QB, T, DE, DT and CB. Those are the positions where it's acceptable to spend big money and high picks. Anything else there's a genuine case to be made for finding a better combination of value and talent. The passing game is way easier in today's NFL. 10 years ago,  it was different. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by John232

[J-ALL-DAY]

I don't get this thing about how elite WRs are not needed. Well, can you then say you don't need to take a QB in the first round to win a SB? After all three of the last four winning QBs were not 1st round QBs. You can say you don't need a top level LT to win. After all, the Eagles had a back up LT for them win they won it all and the Patriots had Trent Brown who some don't think is all that good. 

The point is, there are different ways to build a football team and go about building your team. There is not just one blueprint out there. Having OBJ/AB would absolutely make this a top notch offense. Can we get there even without a dominant WR? Sure, but it would be a whole a lot easier with OBJ/AB. The final four teams this year were KC/NE/NO/LAR. Those four offenses finished in the top 5. The defenses of those teams? 11,16,19 and 26. Dominant offenses in today's league are just too hard to stop with the rules changes. This isn't to say defense isn't important as it definitely is, but the trend is having a dominant offense gives you the best chance to win. 

Have a dominant offense, capable pass rush and solid secondary and you are set. We could have been set with all three by trading for AB and signing Thomas or another good safety and drafting Bosa. Heck, can still get there with signing Thomas, possibly trading for Ford or signing someone like Houston and then trading for OBJ on draft day. We would still have a shot at #6 getting a very good edge rusher. 

[oldman9er]

Seems to me, that there's a lot of substance to both sides of the opinion. 

Does this offense need a true WR1 stud to click to a level of SB success ? "probably not."                 

 

Would this offense be much better with a WR1 like AB or OBJ3 instead of drafted WR ? "likely yes."                               

 

Adding a great WR would very likely make defenses struggle mightily against defending Kittle, Pettis, Goodwin, and the slashing run game. Can that WR be acquired in the draft... can be, but he would be no sure thing. OBJ3 and a behaving AB are a very sure thing. 

Not a must though.. and the resources can go to other areas to still produce SB success. 

[John232]

56 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

I don't get this thing about how elite WRs are not needed. Well, can you then say you don't need to take a QB in the first round to win a SB? After all three of the last four winning QBs were not 1st round QBs. You can say you don't need a top level LT to win. After all, the Eagles had a back up LT for them win they won it all and the Patriots had Trent Brown who some don't think is all that good. 

The point is, there are different ways to build a football team and go about building your team. There is not just one blueprint out there. Having OBJ/AB would absolutely make this a top notch offense. Can we get there even without a dominant WR? Sure, but it would be a whole a lot easier with OBJ/AB. The final four teams this year were KC/NE/NO/LAR. Those four offenses finished in the top 5. The defenses of those teams? 11,16,19 and 26. Dominant offenses in today's league are just too hard to stop with the rules changes. This isn't to say defense isn't important as it definitely is, but the trend is having a dominant offense gives you the best chance to win. 

Have a dominant offense, capable pass rush and solid secondary and you are set. We could have been set with all three by trading for AB and signing Thomas or another good safety and drafting Bosa. Heck, can still get there with signing Thomas, possibly trading for Ford or signing someone like Houston and then trading for OBJ on draft day. We would still have a shot at #6 getting a very good edge rusher. 

Obviously there is multiple ways to win and no doubt those two would make us a top notch offense. But  my point is this comes down to opportunity cost. Also, your point about offenses also sort of contributes to my point depending on your definition of elite. For me the alpha receivers extends to about 6 guys. Green, Julio, Brown, Odell, Hopkins, Thomas and maaaybe Evans. If you look at the top 10..quite a few teams with good (albeit some with very good) receivers but not on the level of the aforementioned players. Obviously lots of reasons for that..but as there are many ways to win there are also many ways to have a dominant offense. 

I don't want us investing cap or picks into a receiver who could very well drop off in the near future. And like you said, though there are multiple ways to win, overpaying for aging players makes maintaining long term success much harder and spending big on someone like Brown absolutely reduces our ability to fortify other parts of our team. We cannot afford to spend 20 million a year on someone, much less a receiver who won't be with us long term when have other holes. Sure, he would probably make our offense elite..but our offense could already be damn near elite without him if Jimmy G lives up to the hype. We have a TE who literally put up WR1 numbers, multiple receivers who are at least good(albeit not #1's) and a guy in Pettis who could be Keenan Allen level good. A potentially dominant run game and other players who offer us a ton of versatility in general (Juice, Pettis, James, Kittle  Mckinnon). Take into account Browns attitude issues, age, money..there's not denying there was a massive amount of risk in taking someone like Brown on. And I think it's fair to say that the negative risk outweighed the positive.

Also worth noting, that trading for Brown would have been more expensive for us since we didn't have a fifth. Probably would have been 3rd and 4th this year or next year (Still good value though, in a vacuum) 

Whereas Our defense is just not good. We're not a safety and a pass rusher away from being "good enough". We were trash last year.. We have:

- 1 good box safety who is seemingly always misses some time.

 - 0 good edge rushers,

- 1 great, but aging outside corner

-  0 FS which we're obviously going to have to pay big money for,

- 1 good LBer, 

-1 elite DT supplanted by a good rotation but one that is probably going to change dramatically in the next couple seasons. Only strength on defense is here. 

We have to focus draft capital and funds on not just getting starters in there but also getting adequate depth too. AB is not going to cover all of this up, even if we got AB and someone like ET+Bosa. 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by John232

[757-NINER]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

The final four teams this year were KC/NE/NO/LAR. 

And only one of those teams had a WR you could say is in the top 5 WR/elite conversation, which further proves my point. You don't have to have a elite WR to have an elite offense. The two don't go hand and hand. More than one way to skin a cat...that's all I'm saying.

Edited March 10, 2019 by 757-NINER

[J-ALL-DAY]

21 minutes ago, John232 said:

Obviously there is multiple ways to win and no doubt those two would make us a top notch offense. But  my point is this comes down to opportunity cost. Also, your point about offenses also sort of contributes to my point depending on your definition of elite. For me the alpha receivers extends to about 6 guys. Green, Julio, Brown, Odell, Hopkins, Thomas and maaaybe Evans. If you look at the top 10..quite a few teams with good (albeit some with very good) receivers but not on the level of the aforementioned players. Obviously lots of reasons for that..but as there are many ways to win there are also many ways to have a dominant offense. 

I don't want us investing cap or picks into a receiver who could very well drop off in the near future. And like you said, though there are multiple ways to win, overpaying for aging players makes maintaining long term success much harder and spending big on someone like Brown absolutely reduces our ability to fortify other parts of our team. We cannot afford to spend 20 million a year on someone, much less a receiver who won't be with us long term when have other holes. Sure, he would probably make our offense elite..but our offense could already be damn near elite without him if Jimmy G lives up to the hype. We have a TE who literally put up WR1 numbers, multiple receivers who are at least good(albeit not #1's) and a guy in Pettis who could be Keenan Allen level good. A potentially dominant run game and other players who offer us a ton of versatility in general (Juice, Pettis, James, Kittle  Mckinnon). Take into account Browns attitude issues, age, money..there's not denying there was a massive amount of risk in taking someone like Brown on. And I think it's fair to say that the negative risk outweighed the positive.

Also worth noting, that trading for Brown would have been more expensive for us since we didn't have a fifth. Probably would have been 3rd and 4th this year or next year (Still good value though, in a vacuum) 

Whereas Our defense is just not good. We're not a safety and a pass rusher away from being "good enough". We were trash last year.. We have:

- 1 good box safety who is seemingly always misses some time.

 - 0 good edge rushers,

- 1 great, but aging outside corner

-  0 FS which we're obviously going to have to pay big money for,

- 1 good LBer, 

-1 elite DT supplanted by a good rotation but one that is probably going to change dramatically in the next couple seasons. Only strength on defense is here. 

We have to focus draft capital and funds on not just getting starters in there but also getting adequate depth too. AB is not going to cover all of this up, even if we got AB and someone like ET+Bosa. 

 

 

I said getting someone like Ford/Houston, then ET in free agency, and OBJ in a trade back. And at #6 we can take a pass rusher like Burns. So yeah, I do think our defense would be good enough with this being our DL:  Houston/Burns/Buckner/Thomas/Armstead/Blair. Wouldn't be a great defense just with the additions of Houston/Burns/ET, but definitely better than what we had last year. And in the other scenario where we would have traded for ET and drafted Bosa at #2 while still getting someone like Houston? Again, to me our defense drastically improves and becomes good enough. Our DL would be damn good, our secondary play automatically improves with the improved pass rush and with the addition of ET. 

Then offensively we would be absolutely loaded with OBJ/AB, Kittle, Pettis, Goodwin, Taylor, Breida, McKinnon and Juice Check. 

To me a team consisting of that talent can compete for a SB. Obviously Jimmy G will have to check out as being the real deal for this to happen. But if he's not then everything else is irrelevant as this team will still be years away from competing until they get a legitimate QB. 

I'm sorry but I don't see anything given up in compensation or the contract that makes me hesitant to trade for AB. Just a month ago we were talking about giving up a 2019 2nd and 2020 3rd for him. Now we are worried about giving up a 3rd and possibly a 4th this year next year for an elite player? Come on now. No problem if you think his attitude is an issue, but compensation is not a good excuse for not wanting him.