Around the NFL II - Even NFLier

[oldman9er]

Like I was good with before any news of the trade, the #2 overall straight up.. should have been the fair compensation for OBJ3. 

Seems the F/O was not on board with that, and fine, I can respect that decision. I disagree, of course, but I can see their side of it. 

 

Spilled milk. Not a single tear. Moved on...

 

[John232]

I think something else worth reminding people on the topic of us trading (overpaying?) for OBJ is Pettis/Kittle. Kittle just put up legit WR 1 numbers with very little help and god awful QB play. Granted he was forced the ball..factor in Pettis, who the team had a first round grade on, they may already think they have a WR1 in Pettis. Enter in a great run game with a stable of backs (problem in its own way)..Just might have come down the opportunity cost in parting with assets for OBJ was too much.

 Not to say you DON"T pursue getting someone like OBJ, i'm glad we tried,  but I think they have far more faith in their ability to manufacture offense and put up points. I think Shanny deserves that benefit of the doubt given what he's done with how little he's had.

Furthermore, It really feels like there's some doubt with Saleh's ability to even scheme out a competent defense. and i've talked about before,, all those explosive offensive teams got tuned up come playoffs and the defenses came to save the day. The Saints the second half of the season were not nearly as scary on offense, but the defense stepped up. Same for the Rams and Patriots come playoff time. We did not have a competent defense, we didn't even have a below average defense for most of the year. We were straight up cheekz and it wasn't just injuries. Just a dearth of talent. And if you're building a defense long term, the best way to have a consistent unit long term is have two guys on every level who good to great. Buckner+Bosa, Warner+Kwon(?) Sherman+...oops (Maybe Akhello/Verrett can be that guy, rookie).

Look at how the Broncos, Bears, Patriots, and Hawks built sustainable defenses. Get your foundation, fill in around it. 49ers still need foundational pieces if we want to have a competitive defense for the next 8 years. 

 

I I think the asking price on OBJ+6 for 2 was a fair starting point and the Giants just didn't want to budge and I get that too. The whole trade scenario when compared to the browns is just kind of weird. idk. 

 

[N4L]

40 minutes ago, John232 said:

I I think the asking price on OBJ+6 for 2 was a fair starting point and the Giants just didn't want to budge and I get that too. The whole trade scenario when compared to the browns is just kind of weird. idk. 

I don't think the giants wanted to trade him here. They knew he wants to be in California and instead sent him to Ohio. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Just now, N4L said:

I don't think the giants wanted to trade him here. They knew he wants to be in California and instead sent him to Ohio. 

Same reason the Raiders didn't want to trade Mack here. Damn, we need to do something about this league wide conspiracy!!!!!

[GW21]

I agree with the FO decision not to give up the number two pick. Like I’ve mentioned before, an elite edge player on a rookie contract for 5 years is far more valuable than a receiver that has an injury history and a history of some questionable off field choices. I would have loved to have had OBJ here, but I was not a fan of giving up the #2 pick. 

[Forge]

43 minutes ago, Gore Whore 21 said:

I agree with the FO decision not to give up the number two pick. Like I’ve mentioned before, an elite edge player on a rookie contract for 5 years is far more valuable than a receiver that has an injury history and a history of some questionable off field choices. I would have loved to have had OBJ here, but I was not a fan of giving up the #2 pick. 

I would have been open to it as a swap. I understand those who are willing to give up #2 on its own, just probably not something I would have done. 

[N4L]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Same reason the Raiders didn't want to trade Mack here. Damn, we need to do something about this league wide conspiracy!!!!!

I can't tell if you are being sardonic or not

[N4L]

10 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

While accurate, this is not what I was seeking. 

So then tell me, whose stat line was that? Lol

[TecmoSuperJoe]

8 hours ago, Gore Whore 21 said:

I agree with the FO decision not to give up the number two pick. Like I’ve mentioned before, an elite edge player on a rookie contract for 5 years is far more valuable than a receiver that has an injury history and a history of some questionable off field choices. I would have loved to have had OBJ here, but I was not a fan of giving up the #2 pick. 

Yes, the #2 overall pick for OBJ would have been beyond nutty to me 

If he didn't have injury problems the last couple of years, and didn't seem like a nutcase...well, I still wouldn't do it. Not with this roster, and not with this upcoming draft class. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by PapaShogun

[y2lamanaki]

6 hours ago, N4L said:

So then tell me, whose stat line was that? Lol

It's a combo statline for OBJ, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, and AJ Green. The four players most talked about on this forum as guys we need to trade for to quickly turn our offense around all helped their 2018 teams to a combined 0 receptions, 0 yards, and 0 touchdowns in the playoffs. Because none of their teams made it. 

I wanted OBJ badly and included a hefty trade in my mock offseason to get him. But it was never at the expense of losing a first round pick altogether. WRs, even stud ones, just aren't that valuable. In the ultimate team sport, there are a number of other more important positions. Like the missing edge rusher opposite Ford.

I easily trust a star blue-chip edge guy at #2 and Shanahan coaching up a flawed but talented WR at #36 over a star WR for #2 and Saleh coaching up a flawed but talented edge guy at #36. Would have loved OBJ, but not at the cost of no first round pick. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

22 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

It's a combo statline for OBJ, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, and AJ Green. The four players most talked about on this forum as guys we need to trade for to quickly turn our offense around all helped their 2018 teams to a combined 0 receptions, 0 yards, and 0 touchdowns in the playoffs. Because none of their teams made it. 

I wanted OBJ badly and included a hefty trade in my mock offseason to get him. But it was never at the expense of losing a first round pick altogether. WRs, even stud ones, just aren't that valuable. In the ultimate team sport, there are a number of other more important positions. Like the missing edge rusher opposite Ford.

I easily trust a star blue-chip edge guy at #2 and Shanahan coaching up a flawed but talented WR at #36 over a star WR for #2 and Saleh coaching up a flawed but talented edge guy at #36. Would have loved OBJ, but not at the cost of no first round pick. 

Why not put up the stat line of Hill and Thomas then? You could cherry pick any stats like this. This goes back to how there are different ways of building a team. Since 2013, three of the four SB winning QBs have been drafted in the 3rd round or lower. So should a team no longer draft a QB in the 1st round anymore? 

Getting OBJ doesn't guarantee us a SB or even a playoff birth. But I'll tell you what, it makes our offense a whole a lot dangerous and gives us a good chance of putting us top 5 in the league. And we saw what having a top 5-6 offense in the league did for NO/NE/KC/LAR this past season. 

[y2lamanaki]

12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Why not put up the stat line of Hill and Thomas then? You could cherry pick any stats like this. This goes back to how there are different ways of building a team. Since 2013, three of the four SB winning QBs have been drafted in the 3rd round or lower. So should a team no longer draft a QB in the 1st round anymore? 

Getting OBJ doesn't guarantee us a SB or even a playoff birth. But I'll tell you what, it makes our offense a whole a lot dangerous and gives us a good chance of putting us top 5 in the league. And we saw what having a top 5-6 offense in the league did for NO/NE/KC/LAR this past season. 

To answer your first question, I don't remember anyone suggesting a trade for them, likely because they know it wouldn't happen. But let's talk about them - I believe both were acquired in the same year, no? One was a 2nd round pick, one was a 5th round pick, no? 

It's not cherry picking stats - those are the relevant stats. If OBJ is the quickest way to turn our fortunes around, then it begs the question why he has a higher number of years in the league than he has career receptions in the playoffs. It would seem that he should have more if the WR position was so valuable. 

And yeah, a top 5 offense is obviously great. New England (who you mentioned, not me - lest I be cherry picking again) had no receiver over 850 yards on the year. Last I checked, they are the only team from 2018 that really matters. But I can go further. 

But those other teams did some other things pretty well that are going unmentioned. Kansas City led the league in sacks and were 6th in turnover differential (the 4 teams you mentioned were 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th in this category). The Saints were 5th in sacks. The Rams were in the top half of the league as well. Seems like aside from having a top offense, those teams had some other key things they did well that we did not (sacks and turnovers). OBJ isn't going to help us there. An edge rusher might.

You know who had a great offense last year? Pittsburgh. You know who struggled with forcing turnovers? Pittsburgh. You know who didn't make the playoffs, needs defensive help, and just traded their star receiver? Pittsburgh.

I agree that OBJ would take us to a top 5 offense. Never debated that. I wanted that. But I also know he's not helping our biggest problem as a team (pass rush/turnovers) and I happen to know that the best way to help that is with the #2 overall pick (or any first round pick we could acquire in a trade down). In the ultimate team sport, you need things to work on both sides of the ball.

As for the Super Bowl winning quarterback question (talk about cherry picking), there has been plenty of historical data to suggest that theory is wrong while the historical data on the receivers holds up a lot better (the best receivers Brady ever had - Moss and Welker - have no rings).

And the point I dare you to argue:

I easily trust a star blue-chip edge guy at #2 and Shanahan coaching up a flawed but talented WR at #36 over a star WR for #2 and Saleh coaching up a flawed but talented edge guy at #36. Would have loved OBJ, but not at the cost of no first round pick. 

 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

I can't remember the last receiver with as much hype as OBJ gets combined with drama, to be on a Super Bowl winning team. 

[757-NINER]

14 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

To answer your first question, I don't remember anyone suggesting a trade for them, likely because they know it wouldn't happen. But let's talk about them - I believe both were acquired in the same year, no? One was a 2nd round pick, one was a 5th round pick, no? 

It's not cherry picking stats - those are the relevant stats. If OBJ is the quickest way to turn our fortunes around, then it begs the question why he has a higher number of years in the league than he has career receptions in the playoffs. It would seem that he should have more if the WR position was so valuable. 

And yeah, a top 5 offense is obviously great. New England (who you mentioned, not me - lest I be cherry picking again) had no receiver over 850 yards on the year. Last I checked, they are the only team from 2018 that really matters. But I can go further. 

But those other teams did some other things pretty well that are going unmentioned. Kansas City led the league in sacks and were 6th in turnover differential (the 4 teams you mentioned were 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th in this category). The Saints were 5th in sacks. The Rams were in the top half of the league as well. Seems like aside from having a top offense, those teams had some other key things they did well that we did not (sacks and turnovers). OBJ isn't going to help us there. An edge rusher might.

You know who had a great offense last year? Pittsburgh. You know who struggled with forcing turnovers? Pittsburgh. You know who didn't make the playoffs, needs defensive help, and just traded their star receiver? Pittsburgh.

I agree that OBJ would take us to a top 5 offense. Never debated that. I wanted that. But I also know he's not helping our biggest problem as a team (pass rush/turnovers) and I happen to know that the best way to help that is with the #2 overall pick (or any first round pick we could acquire in a trade down). In the ultimate team sport, you need things to work on both sides of the ball.

As for the Super Bowl winning quarterback question (talk about cherry picking), there has been plenty of historical data to suggest that theory is wrong while the historical data on the receivers holds up a lot better (the best receivers Brady ever had - Moss and Welker - have no rings).

And the point I dare you to argue:

I easily trust a star blue-chip edge guy at #2 and Shanahan coaching up a flawed but talented WR at #36 over a star WR for #2 and Saleh coaching up a flawed but talented edge guy at #36. Would have loved OBJ, but not at the cost of no first round pick. 

 

[Forge]

16 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I easily trust a star blue-chip edge guy at #2 and Shanahan coaching up a flawed but talented WR at #36 over a star WR for #2 and Saleh coaching up a flawed but talented edge guy at #36

Bringing this point up is like a cheat code.