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y2lamanaki

Around the NFL II - Even NFLier

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I just had this unique idea just pop into my head that is in no way responding to anyone who may or may not be involved with me in a mutually agreed-upon forum ignore treaty, but I feel would be a remarkable thought to commemorate in this very thread (for if it were responding to anyone, I would of course just quote them directly to have a friendly conversation about it). Here's an interesting entirely random definition:

ri·val
/ˈrīvəl/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.

Again, this is purely random musing on my part and is in no way referencing anything previously discussed, but boy does that definition sure describe us and the Seattle Seahawks or what? (I also chose the Seahawks randomly from among a variety of potential definition-fitting candidates; could have chosen anyone; picked them). I mean especially from 2010 through 2013 when each team won the division twice, and then they competed directly with each other for NFC superiority in those last two years. Lots of obvious animosity. Really seems to match that above definition to a tee. Especially since 'rival' doesn't have a timing qualifier and the word 'rivals' exists as a plural form of the word, meaning that a person or thing (in this case team) can compete for the same objective or superiority in the same field of activity with multiple entities. 

I personally think a 'rival' is this fluid thing that develops over time based on circumstance. Kind of like how no 49ers fan had ever cared one iota about the Green Bay Packers until 1995, and then suddenly those two started competing for superiority in the same field of activity for a few years in a row. And now there is still this special sort of lingering dislike that occurs whenever the Packers are on the schedule and an extra special sweetness to those victories over them. 

In fact, I actually can't think of any other team in the last decade that truly fits the above definition for the 49ers better than the Seahawks. Historically it also fits for the Rams, Cowboys, Giants, and Packers. Those all developed in different ways at different times. All still carry that similar lingering dislike that occurs whenever the Seahawks are up next on the schedule. 

Being a fan is really an interesting state of mind, I suppose. 

Anyway, I am just randomly expressing fun thoughts here. Feels like this would make for interesting discussion would a second participant not involved in actively ignoring this one care to engage. 

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3 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

I just had this unique idea just pop into my head that is in no way responding to anyone who may or may not be involved with me in a mutually agreed-upon forum ignore treaty, but I feel would be a remarkable thought to commemorate in this very thread (for if it were responding to anyone, I would of course just quote them directly to have a friendly conversation about it). Here's an interesting entirely random definition:

ri·val
/ˈrīvəl/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.

Again, this is purely random musing on my part and is in no way referencing anything previously discussed, but boy does that definition sure describe us and the Seattle Seahawks or what? (I also chose the Seahawks randomly from among a variety of potential definition-fitting candidates; could have chosen anyone; picked them). I mean especially from 2010 through 2013 when each team won the division twice, and then they competed directly with each other for NFC superiority in those last two years. Lots of obvious animosity. Really seems to match that above definition to a tee. Especially since 'rival' doesn't have a timing qualifier and the word 'rivals' exists as a plural form of the word, meaning that a person or thing (in this case team) can compete for the same objective or superiority in the same field of activity with multiple entities. 

I personally think a 'rival' is this fluid thing that develops over time based on circumstance. Kind of like how no 49ers fan had ever cared one iota about the Green Bay Packers until 1995, and then suddenly those two started competing for superiority in the same field of activity for a few years in a row. And now there is still this special sort of lingering dislike that occurs whenever the Packers are on the schedule and an extra special sweetness to those victories over them. 

In fact, I actually can't think of any other team in the last decade that truly fits the above definition for the 49ers better than the Seahawks. Historically it also fits for the Rams, Cowboys, Giants, and Packers. Those all developed in different ways at different times. All still carry that similar lingering dislike that occurs whenever the Seahawks are up next on the schedule. 

Being a fan is really an interesting state of mind, I suppose. 

Anyway, I am just randomly expressing fun thoughts here. Feels like this would make for interesting discussion would a second participant not involved in actively ignoring this one care to engage. 

 

To each his own, I guess. NEVER have I ever considered Seattle to be our rival personally. We haven't established a rivalry yet IMO. There isn't enough playoff history nor divisonal history for me to view them as such. Webster's Dictionary aside, my personal fandom hand guide states a rival as a team where you have played in numerous high stakes or post-season/championship games. Contest where the winner usually goes on to hoist another championship trophy. I would argue we have muuuuuuuch more of a rivalry with teams like the Giants and Cowboys, two teams outside our division. Packers even. If we're going strictly our division, I'd say the Rams are more our rival, as we have both been in the same division since the 70's and have much more of a history. Even playoff history. We've had exactly ONE meaniful playoff game with the Hawks. I can't rightfully call that a rivalry. No more than I can call the Clippers vs Lakers a rivalry. They seemed destined to be building up to that but there's not a history of high stakes, meaningful games between the two. Lakers vs Celtics? Now that's a rivalry. Even though they only play twice a year, every year, their post-season history is unprescented. 

Now it may differ for certain sports. College sports rivalries are usually geographic (i.e. schools in the same conference and also in the same state). Soccer derbies are definitely more city/country based. But most pro rivalries are centered around two teams battling for championship trophies and titles. Us and Seattle haven't both fielded contending teams, consistently and in unison, for there to be much of anything for each fansbase to have any real disdain for each other. 

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Going to side with @y2lamanaki here. The b****birds are 100% our rivals. 

There was a lot of bad blood between the two teams for a while. We were the best two teams in the NFC for a 2-4 year stretch. I don't know why this is even a discussion

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1 hour ago, 757-NINER said:

 

To each his own, I guess. NEVER have I ever considered Seattle to be our rival personally. We haven't established a rivalry yet IMO. There isn't enough playoff history nor divisonal history for me to view them as such. Webster's Dictionary aside, my personal fandom hand guide states a rival as a team where you have played in numerous high stakes or post-season/championship game Contest where the winner usually goes on to hoist another championship trophy. I would argue we have muuuuuuuch more of a rivalry with teams like the Giants and Cowboys, two teams outside our division. Packers even. If we're going strictly our division, I'd say the Rams are more our rival, as we have both been in the same division since the 70's and have much more of a history. Even playoff history. We've had exactly ONE meaniful playoff game with the Hawks. I can't rightfully call that a rivalry. No more than I can call the Clippers vs Lakers a rivalry. They seemed destined to be building up to that but there's not a history of high stakes, meaningful games between the two. Lakers vs Celtics? Now that's a rivalry. Even though they only play twice a year, every year, their post-season history is unprescented. 

Now it may differ for certain sports. College sports rivalries are usually geographic (i.e. schools in the same conference and also in the same state). Soccer derbies are definitely more city/country based. But most pro rivalries are centered around two teams battling for championship trophies and titles. Us and Seattle haven't both fielded contending teams, consistently and in unison, for there to be much of anything for each fansbase to have any real disdain for each other. 

I like it. I can appreciate your position (and would love to read your personal fandom hand guide sometime, haha). I think in some cases, those could be solid criteria. And certainly, I rank the rivalry with the Seahawks behind the others discussed because of the longevity of each. But it's a rivalry. 

But that said (and the reason it's only some cases), we've had an identical amount of meaningful playoff games with both the Rams and Seahawks (1), and that definition would make the Lions and Bengals (2) bigger rivals than either. It would also put us behind such rivalries as the Dolphins and Ravens (2) or Jaguars and Bills (2) or Bengals and Texans (2). And that puts the classic 49ers/Bengals, 49ers/Lions, Dolphins/Ravens, Jaguars/Bills, Bengals/Texans rivalries all on equal footing with Packers/Bears (2) and Packers/Vikings (2). Is the sneaky Cardinals/Panthers (3) rivalry the best of this bunch?

More importantly, would that put the Ravens/Steelers (4) and their excellent rivalry on equal footing with the Eagles/Buccaneers (4)? 

Bears/Giants (8) top of the charts?

Obviously these are absurdities. Few would say the Packers/Bears aren't one of the greatest rivalries ever despite only meeting once in the playoffs since World War 2 - the same amount as us and the Rams or us and the Seahawks. In fact, the Packers and Bears each have had more playoff games against each of the 49ers, Seahawks, and Rams than they have against each other. And vice versa. 

So, I don't think that the definition passes the muster. If your guide states a rival is a team where you have played in numerous post-season/championship games, then there are some unsung rivalries and some of the classics aren't so classic. And to include multiple high-stakes games outside of the playoffs (as your definition does note), then the multiple high stakes contests in that span between both teams, including the four primetime games between the two in the Harbaugh era count. In which case the 49ers/Seahawks become a rivalry under your definition. 

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3 hours ago, N4L said:

Going to side with @y2lamanaki here. The b****birds are 100% our rivals. 

There was a lot of bad blood between the two teams for a while. We were the best two teams in the NFC for a 2-4 year stretch. I don't know why this is even a discussion

Meh, there was bad blood between Harbaugh & Carroll....which then turned into bad blood between former Stanford players Baldwin & Sherman vs Harbaugh.....which then morphed into bad blood between Sherman & Crabtree. The Hawks were not on our radar as a fanbase because they were irrelevant before Carroll & The LOB....Holmgren's one SB run aside.

If you and the rest of the majority deem them a rivalry, fine. But I know ALOT of Niner Empire who don't look at Seattle in that manner. As soon as Harbaugh left, so did the so-called rivalry IMO...

Its funny because I work with quite a few Niner fans and we've had these conversations ad neaseum about who's our real rival and what teams they hate losing to the most, etc. And while there are some who consider Seattle to be a full-on rival, I was really surprised how many ppl feel that we actually lack a credible divisional rival. Alot fans feel as though our hate for our divisional foes is merely a case of who's on on the top, looking down at the rest of the division at that current time. It was the Cards when they had Docket, Wilson, and Warner. Then it was Seattle with all the Carroll/Harbaugh history. Now its the Rams with the McVay vs Shanny and the whole who's the better offensive mind angle. But we lack a true divisional rivalry where no matter the records, both fanbases never want to lose that game. That Skins vs Cowgirls/Bears vs Packers/Ravens vs Steelers type of rivalry. And I tend to agree. I don't lose sleep over losing games to anybody in our division. I guess its because I remember when we OWNED the NFCW with a Pats-like dominance for well over a decade. So I never looked at our divisional opponents as actually comp tbh. But let us lose to the Cowgirls or the G-Men and I am fuming mad. I'd add the Steelers and the Pats to that list too. Though not our rivals, I loathe much of their fanbases lol.

So I again, I think its a matter of personal disdain for a team and their subsequent fanbase. I tend to base my sports rivalries on past history...meaningful games with huge ramifications, that has occurred over a sustained period of time. Not so much reg season match-ups or prime time games. There are exceptions to the rule but in the case of my beloved Niners, I just don't feel the same angst alot do towards Seattle. I think where a fan resides also plays a factor. Alot of Bay Area Niner fans I know HATE the Raiders. And that's mostly due to the proximity of both fanbases being so close. But I have nothing against the Raiders at all. Im cool with alot of Raiders fans and I consider them to be one of the most down-to-earth fanbases on the East Coast. But again, Im sure alot of the West Coast based fans would disagree with me. It all boils down to individual experiences in the end.

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@757-NINER Now that the Rams are in LA, you bet your arse they are a 'natural' rival. The bay area and LA are natural rivals. 

the fact you say raiders fans are 'down to earth' makes me laugh, and makes me question the rest of what you are saying. most of the raiders fans on this site are pretty good, but they are the exception in my experience

anyways, I don't really care who people consider a 'rival' or a 'non-rival'. I have the teams that I dislike, and that's good enough for me *shrug*

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4 minutes ago, N4L said:

@757-NINER Now that the Rams are in LA, you bet your arse they are a 'natural' rival. The bay area and LA are natural rivals. 

the fact you say raiders fans are 'down to earth' makes me laugh, and makes me question the rest of what you are saying. most of the raiders fans on this site are pretty good, but they are the exception in my experience

anyways, I don't really care who people consider a 'rival' or a 'non-rival'. I have the teams that I dislike, and that's good enough for me *shrug*

Well I did say the East Coast Raiders fans....I can count on one hand the Oakland-born and raised Raiders fans I know. And all three are die-hards but cool af. Like I said, its all about experiences...

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15 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

The Hawks were not on our radar as a fanbase because they were irrelevant before Carroll & The LOB....Holmgren's one SB run aside.

I can appreciate much of that reply, but they were far from irrelevant. They made the playoffs in 6 of the 8 years before Carroll and won 5 playoff games in that period. To put that into perspective, we haven't been to the playoffs six times this century. 

If they were irrelevant, there is no adjective available to describe what we were.

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Meh I don't really like any of the teams in our div...u know just cuz. But I only hate one team...Dallas. Also I live in Dallas so it's fresh every yr...lol

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

I can appreciate much of that reply, but they were far from irrelevant. They made the playoffs in 6 of the 8 years before Carroll and won 5 playoff games in that period. To put that into perspective, we haven't been to the playoffs six times this century. 

If they were irrelevant, there is no adjective available to describe what we were.

Irrevelant in terms of being an antagonist. Should have worded that better. Even with Holmgren, they were not viewed as the "enemy". Divisional foe yes, but not as a rival per say. At least I never heard other Niners fans speak about them with overt hostility until Carroll and the LOB arrived. 

Edited by 757-NINER

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, sherm said:

Meh I don't really like any of the teams in our div...u know just cuz. But I only hate one team...Dallas. Also I live in Dallas so it's fresh every yr...lol

Living in Dallas. That must be rough. Except the traffic. 

Do Cowboys fans give you a hard time? 

Edited by PapaShogun

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

Irrevelant in terms of being an antagonist. Should have worded that better. Even with Holmgren, they were not viewed as the "enemy". Divisional foe yes, but not as a rival per say. At least I never heard other Niners fans speak about them with overt hostility until Carroll and the LOB arrived. 

Also, a lot of people forget the 49ers were the Rams doormat in the 1970's. The 1980's they'd usually split the series. 90's the 49ers killed them. Early 2000's, the reverse. Then both teams sucked for a while. 

Seattle has been annoying for me, but never inflicted as many battle scars as some other teams. Dallas and Green Bay especially. And no one really seemed to hate Seattle until Carroll/Wilson arrived, and they got good in 2012. Essentially a 2 year stretch where they were both good at the same time. 2014 Seahawks took over and haven't looked back since. Maybe if there was more regular season history, and playoff cuts I'd be up in arms about it. Wasn't even that mad when we lost to the Seahawks in 2013. I was furious when we lost to the Giants in 2011.

Edited by PapaShogun

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, N4L said:

@757-NINER Now that the Rams are in LA, you bet your arse they are a 'natural' rival. The bay area and LA are natural rivals. 

the fact you say raiders fans are 'down to earth' makes me laugh, and makes me question the rest of what you are saying. most of the raiders fans on this site are pretty good, but they are the exception in my experience

anyways, I don't really care who people consider a 'rival' or a 'non-rival'. I have the teams that I dislike, and that's good enough for me *shrug*

I SAY THEE NAY! I'm going to decide what you like for you. :)

Edited by PapaShogun

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1 hour ago, PapaShogun said:

Also, a lot of people forget the 49ers were the Rams doormat in the 1970's. The 1980's they'd usually split the series. 90's the 49ers killed them. Early 2000's, the reverse. Then both teams sucked for a while. 

Seattle has been annoying for me, but never inflicted as many battle scars as some other teams. Dallas and Green Bay especially. And no one really seemed to hate Seattle until Carroll/Wilson arrived, and they got good in 2012. Essentially a 2 year stretch where they were both good at the same time. 2014 Seahawks took over and haven't looked back since. Maybe if there was more regular season history, and playoff cuts I'd be up in arms about it. Wasn't even that mad when we lost to the Seahawks in 2013. I was furious when we lost to the Giants in 2011.

As for my view on the Rams, I'll quote the great Ronnie Lott who said it best...."same sorry a$$ Rams"

Even when they're good like they are currently, I don't really give them much thought. I certainly want to beat the brakes off them this year but my disdain is not at a level where I hold real contempt for them. 

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