5up 5down wk3 Bucs

[3rivers]

Up

1. a win will help the team a bit anyways. Not the nicest way to win, but it's a start.

2. D TO's. Bucs were sloppy arely in the game , and that helps

3. Ben has arrived, finally

4. Connor - he does it all, a starter for sure. 

5. Almost forgot - VMac, that was a stiff arm 

6. Bostic - solid game but the penalty is old school and when will these players learn? I think it's  instinct and expect penalties all the time.

7. juju  

 

I liked the effort of the team, much better in all aspects. This is a start anyways, even if we lost, the effort was there and some good hitting out there and not many missed tackles this week. 

Downs

1. so many penalties (real and some not ) that it interrupts the game

2. Bos - when is he going to arrive?

3. D -  still let the bucs back into the game and what if DJax return was allowed or dupree never got the  pick 6 gift earlier?

4. Offence let up and the bucs got back into the game

5. announcers going on about Bell, I am sick of all that every week, but only 7 more to go

6. Pass pro was lacking at times as was the running game early on, the bucs have a solid DL, JPP had a good game

7. warfelg getting his fantasy numbers after complaining about missing some 

8. Davis - if he doesn't know how to play safety, try him at LB  or let M.Allen try safety.  

 

https://www.steelers.com/video/highlight-ben-finds-juju-for-key-conversion

Notice the kick to the head on the end of this play 

 

At least we got the win. I only see shootouts with this D.  Ben better get the arm healed, because I can see him throwing 5K this season and it still might not be enough since the D can't stop anyone. I don't get into high scoring games, but I will have to learn to for this season anyways. We were +2 in the TO battle and with a pick 6 we just barely won but the team's effort was there and it's a start.

[43M]

Ups

1. We won -   Ugly at the end, but at least we got over that hump.

2.   Juju -  Honestly I could see him being a bonafide elite WR in a few years.   Only freaking 21 still, too!

3.  Ben -   Playing better, but still missing too many throws.   Trending upwards, though.

4.  Vance McDonald -  Has to be on here if only for that masterful stiff arm.

5.  Conner -   Hardly had any room to run the last two weeks with DDC out, but is a weapon in all phases.    

Downs

1.    SOOOOOOO undisciplined  -   Its getting embarrassing.  From penalties to stupid mistakes, this is not a winning formula.

2.   Interior Oline without DDC -   Pouncey is laughably overrated.      Foster is just meh, but he is being paid peanuts.

3.   Artie Burns -   The entire secondary looked like crap again, but there was also no real pass rush.   Artie Burns is a bust though...lets just admit that.    he has no instincts whatso-effing-ever.    I have zero hope left for this guy.   Was a bad pick to begin with.  

4.   Pass rush sucks -   TJ Watt has done nothing since week one...and it felt like a flukey week.   Dupree only gets sacks when the QB holds on the ball too long or he has a free shot at the QB.   F***ing bum.     Just nothing in terms of a consistent pass rush.    People can bash Keith Butler all they want, and maybe he is an issue....but make no mistake....the biggest issue with this defense, BY FAR, is lack of talent.

5.  The league keeps getting softer, and my interest in the NFL continues to dwindle.  

 

[warfelg]

All right some of my ups and downs are sure to be controversial:

UPS -

1)  Bringing pressure.  When we brought pressure we were getting free rushers and hits on Fitz and we dominated.  Second half we sat back and it killed us.

2) Artie Burns and Joe Haden in Man Coverage. Other than a perfect pass and catch and a slip, these two did really well in man coverage.  That's also when we brought pressure.  Hopefully Butler learned something.

3) Terrell Edmunds and Mike Hilton in Zone Coverage. Safeties of the future.

4) Ben feeling it on the move. I think he tried too hard weeks 1 and 2 to abandon the style that works for him.  He went back to the movement, getting out of the pocket, the broken plays.  And it worked.

5) Ryan Switzer. The feeling of not seeing 84 back there to return a punt and having confidence that we might get something positive.

DOWNS -

1) Laundry. Not Landry.  Too many flags.  Some were avoidable.  Sean Davis's roughing the passer was avoidable.  DHB deserved to be left at the airport.

2)  Offensive line. That was baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

3) Artie Burns and Joe Haden in Zone Coverage. The old problems popped up there.  Passing onto the next zone who wasn't there, jumping ghost routes, flooded zones confused them.

4) Terrell Edmunds and Mike Hilton in Man Coverage. These two put in man situations all night got beat like a high school drum.  They just can't mirror offensive players all that well.

5) Field conditions.  I'm overlooking a lot of bad.  I know someone who was at field level and said those guys might as well have played on ice.  He said some of the players changed out to 3/4 inch spikes and still were sliding everywhere.  And outside of the logo area in the middle of the field, it was basically painted 2 inch deep mud that they were playing on.

[jebrick]

I would disagree with the Oline being bad.  I am trying to think of a sack that was not a coverage sack.  They ran effectively when they needed to.  THey pick up the blitzes.  For a replacement right side of the line I was happy ( given the TB dline is very good.).

[warfelg]

14 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I would disagree with the Oline being bad.  I am trying to think of a sack that was not a coverage sack.  They ran effectively when they needed to.  THey pick up the blitzes.  For a replacement right side of the line I was happy ( given the TB dline is very good.).

Sacks weren’t that high but hits and pressers were high along with a low yards before contact for Conner. 

[3rivers]

21 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I would disagree with the Oline being bad.  I am trying to think of a sack that was not a coverage sack.  They ran effectively when they needed to.  THey pick up the blitzes.  For a replacement right side of the line I was happy ( given the TB dline is very good.).

Connor picked up a blitzes or free'd DL when he was back there as if he has done this for years. I'll give the Bucs credit too, and perhaps the field has some say in this as everyone was slipping in certain areas out there. The OL came through when it needed at the end, not pretty but they got the job done with Connor at the end.

[Lambert44]

UPS

Ben - JuJu - Bostic - And teams wanting to trade for Bell (lets get something for him)

Downs

37 penalties in 3 games, where is the discipline Tomlin? 

Defense is still awful, guys running open all over the place, lack of a pass rush, not the brightest guys in the world.....

[Shady Slim]

one up i think has gone under the radar

big dan is quietly having himself a season 

[43M]

19 hours ago, warfelg said:

All right some of my ups and downs are sure to be controversial:

UPS -

1)  Bringing pressure.  When we brought pressure we were getting free rushers and hits on Fitz and we dominated.  Second half we sat back and it killed us.

Problem is, just like last year, blitzing is the only way we get pressure.   We dont have guys that can line up and beat OLineman straight up.     Watt has done nothing since the first game....and that worries me.    Dupree....we already know.

Well, at least we have Keion Adams....he's like an extra draft pick, ya know?

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Problem is, just like last year, blitzing is the only way we get pressure.   We dont have guys that can line up and beat OLineman straight up.     Watt has done nothing since the first game....and that worries me.    Dupree....we already know.

Well, at least we have Keion Adams....he's like an extra draft pick, ya know?

Thats the FO mentality but that extra draft pick will get replaced by Adeyini, an undrafted player. I expect Adeyini to replace 4th year RD1 pick Dupree once Adeyini  is healthy but that won't be for a while. Buy some time for now I guess, rely on ILB's blitz for pressures or rely on bad OL's that we will play. 

[warfelg]

5 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Problem is, just like last year, blitzing is the only way we get pressure.   We dont have guys that can line up and beat OLineman straight up.     Watt has done nothing since the first game....and that worries me.    Dupree....we already know.

Well, at least we have Keion Adams....he's like an extra draft pick, ya know?

Don't disagree at all.  Watt would be a great hybrid Will Backer.  Which is what he was at Wisconsin.  Dupree....I honestly throw my hands up over.  That speed should be coming from a wide flat angle.  He would be great lining up really wide, and having Aaron Smith to take the doubles like he did for years for Clark Haggans.  

Ugh...this 'extra pick' crap is so stupid.  He's undrafted.  That's not an extra pick.  And I know you don't feel that way; but the team and other do.

But I put the pressure as an up because last year and under LeBeau when we did that we couldn't get home even with extra rushers.  He's throwing in twists, stunts, and delays and it's really working.

But here's my problem:  No one two gaps and eats blockers.  As good as Heyward and Tuitt are, neither demand a double.  Which means usually there's some player on the offensive line that's just waiting to block someone and can move to whoever needs the help.  Our 4 man rush getting home is usually a mistake by the opposing OL than anything else.  Sometimes I wonder what would happen if they lined up Tuitt and Hargraves in the A gaps, had them both 2 gap and occupy at least the G-C-G area, what the pass rush would be like.  Instead they don't line up in gapes or shading, and go helmet over helmet of the OG's, which makes it easier to slide protect.

[Dcash4]

On 9/25/2018 at 4:26 AM, FourThreeMafia said:

People can bash Keith Butler all they want, and maybe he is an issue....but make no mistake....the biggest issue with this defense, BY FAR, is lack of talent.

I agree with the talent being an issue, but just disagree that its by FAR the issue over coaching. I think its complete chicken or the egg. Good coaching brings out the best in players, its why the thoughts of guys like Gilbert elevated so quickly from the before and after Munchack era. Its how Bill Belichick takes cast offs and annually has a top 8 defense. BB is the best at taking niche guys and only using them at their strengths. 

Communication being an issue for a third straight year is a coaching problem. A good coach can teach you, me , and 2 other members of this forum to not blow coverage consistently in the NFL despite the fact we could never catch them if we tried. Substitutions is a coaching issue and we got dinged for it -- again - on Monday. Using players "talents" and not optioning to use them against those skill sets is a coaching issue. Putting ILB who cannot cover down the field or man to man in position to do so constantly is a coaching issue. Playing zone with guys who cant play zone, playing man with guys who get torched by man, constantly giving the same look (3 times in a row blitzing the corner, 3 times in a row successful offensive plays), having the same and drastically easy to read check system when the offense motions (hey Chiefs) is a coaching issue. 

Again, I am not saying we have talent, but good coaching can work around things and at least limit certain areas of weakness. This defense is a nightmare all over - from coaching to players - and you cant hang your hat on one thing we do well. Even if we had talent, I don't think Butler would have us in any better position. He seems to coach like he has never met his team. Going back to the Patriots, they were largely considered one of the worst defenses in the league thought he early part of last year, but their ability to adapt and change with the same personnel turned them into one of the better units in the NFL. Bill is an extreme example, because that's what is going to make him the best of all time, but there is a level of quality we should expect from an NFL coach -- especially one we waited for for some long - and Keith Butler isn't it. 

[armsteeld]

Penalties are NOT absign of an undisciplined team but they are signs of a team that lacks talent. Media makes fans want to blame coaches but it's not their fault at times. When OL are beaten, they tend to grab. Yes we get mad but he's protecting his teammate. CB gets a PI call due to him getting beat by not using the proper technique or because he simply isn't as good as the guy he's covering. Presnap penalties are ones I associate with discipline. Just my thoughts on this whole lack of discipline crap.

[Dcash4]

Since I am on the coaching subject, I'll throw in a down that I don't think will get mentioned or noticed much because we are averaging 30 points a game, but...

I think Randy Fitcher is a bad coordinator. We are not winning because of him, we are winning because of the talent the offense has. Our most successful plays have come from the old Arians days: Ben take a 5-7 drop, see no one open because of awful design and route combos, shake off a defender, and find someone breaking free on the scramble. Nothing seems to be done in time. Nothing seems to be done to take advantage of match ups (though, I was extremely excited to see the Vance McDonald sets -- but then we seemed to never see it again).

Opening games with 3 and outs with bland play calling really bother me. It tells me you didn't map the game. We have run 9 plays for 12 yards on our first possession of the year so far. Compare that to Andy Reed who is a fantastic coach at mapping opening series: Chiefs opening drives - 18 plays, 142 yards, 3 TDs. And that's low if you figure the first drive against the Steelers was 2 plays for 10 yards and TD. If you take the second drive of our game, which was probably his opening game set, the numbers are 21 plays, 203 yards, 3 Td's to start games. 

This offense is good, but our offense isn't good enough to win games with our defense if we cant start fast. Not being able to map a successful first drive when its what you spend all week doing (or at least, should spend your week doing) sucks. That needs to change, and it needs to change this weekend. 

[MOSteelers56]

53 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Since I am on the coaching subject, I'll throw in a down that I don't think will get mentioned or noticed much because we are averaging 30 points a game, but...

I think Randy Fitcher is a bad coordinator. We are not winning because of him, we are winning because of the talent the offense has. Our most successful plays have come from the old Arians days: Ben take a 5-7 drop, see no one open because of awful design and route combos, shake off a defender, and find someone breaking free on the scramble. Nothing seems to be done in time. Nothing seems to be done to take advantage of match ups (though, I was extremely excited to see the Vance McDonald sets -- but then we seemed to never see it again).

Opening games with 3 and outs with bland play calling really bother me. It tells me you didn't map the game. We have run 9 plays for 12 yards on our first possession of the year so far. Compare that to Andy Reed who is a fantastic coach at mapping opening series: Chiefs opening drives - 18 plays, 142 yards, 3 TDs. And that's low if you figure the first drive against the Steelers was 2 plays for 10 yards and TD. If you take the second drive of our game, which was probably his opening game set, the numbers are 21 plays, 203 yards, 3 Td's to start games. 

This offense is good, but our offense isn't good enough to win games with our defense if we cant start fast. Not being able to map a successful first drive when its what you spend all week doing (or at least, should spend your week doing) sucks. That needs to change, and it needs to change this weekend. 

I agree with this. Haley was a fairly bad play-caller and a jerk, but he was an overall good coordinator. Much better than Fitchner. I'll give Randy some more time, though. He's not done it for a long time.