J-ALL-DAY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Just now, Forge said: It's really going to depend on if the Giants value that pick swap at all. Giants fans have been saying since I brought this up that what I'm proposing isn't enough (swap of picks this year, frp next year + sweetener). Honestly, should be more than enough given the value difference between 2 and 6, but admittedly, will depend greatly on whether or not the Giants actually value that swap (if they want Haskins, or to be perfectly honest, if they decide they really want Bosa and he is there). If they don't think that they need to move up for Haskins, or would rather risk it because they are comfortable with getting Daniel Jones with their second pick, then yeah, that pick swap isn't going to really hold a lot of value in trade negotiations and I doubt anything comes of it. If they feel like they absolutely have to make that trade up to secure Haskins, that swap is going to hold some really decent value for them, and the easiest way to make that happen (particularly with them lacking third and fourth round picks now) is to have that as part of an OBJ trade. Oh, I think that will be enough. People don't realize the value of the 2nd pick. Look what the Browns got for the Wentz trade. Granted, that was what 9 to 2 or 8 to 2? But point still stands. Haskins pro day and his interviews during that time are going to huge. I think that scenery he is going to kill it with his arm. And truthfully, he is just so damn talented throwing the ball. Big time arm with nice touch on deep balls. He's a worth #1 overall pick. Just doesn't have the experience, which probably means it wouldn't hurt to sit behind a vet for majority of the rookie season. I don't buy the Daniel Jones and the NYG hype. Haskins just seems like their guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fureys49ers Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said: But who said Ford alone makes us a playoff contender? Ford+ET+Bosa which would be a real possibility sure make that defense a whole lot better. And is 28 supposed to be a bad thing here or something? Sorry, not understanding that. Is that too old for your liking? Pass rushers have shown they can be effective past the age of 30. If you want to say he only has two years of good production, that is fair and not arguable. However, those two years have been the last two years he's been healthy. So his last two full seasons he is averaging 11.5 sacks. If we trade him, we will almost surely have to extend him by paying him in the 17-18M range. And I understand that will be too rich for some's liking but that's just the reality with these pass rushers. I read to quickly and didn’t realize your playoff contender mention was with other trades and moves happening as well. In regards to Ford, yes I think 28 is rather old for a guy who has an injury history and only two years of production for what is likely going to be atleast a 2nd round pick or a player who more than likely would be 22 years old or younger. Instead, we would be paying close to 20 mil a season for a guy who’s fit is questionable, injury history and ability to stay on the field is questionable, production is questionable. That’s too much for me. I understand the reality is that pass rushers are expensive, I would just rather spend that money on a player more proven, productive and younger preferably instead of Ford. Which is probably along the lines of what the Chiefs are thinking and why he’s available for trade. Like I think @Forge stated, if we do trade for Ford I think there’s a strong likelihood we trade down from 2 to recoup picks and probably remove ourselves from the running of pass rusher in the 1st. With this class being so strong at pass rusher and picking at 2 we are in prime position to add the player of our choice on a team friendly contract. Why mess that up for a 28 year old question mark? That’s my thinking atleast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Fureys49ers said: I read to quickly and didn’t realize your playoff contender mention was with other trades and moves happening as well. In regards to Ford, yes I think 28 is rather old for a guy who has an injury history and only two years of production for what is likely going to be atleast a 2nd round pick or a player who more than likely would be 22 years old or younger. Instead, we would be paying close to 20 mil a season for a guy who’s fit is questionable, injury history and ability to stay on the field is questionable, production is questionable. That’s too much for me. I understand the reality is that pass rushers are expensive, I would just rather spend that money on a player more proven, productive and younger preferably instead of Ford. Which is probably along the lines of what the Chiefs are thinking and why he’s available for trade. Like I think @Forge stated, if we do trade for Ford I think there’s a strong likelihood we trade down from 2 to recoup picks and probably remove ourselves from the running of pass rusher in the 1st. With this class being so strong at pass rusher and picking at 2 we are in prime position to add the player of our choice on a team friendly contract. Why mess that up for a 28 year old question mark? That’s my thinking atleast. If Bosa is available and the team really likes him, then we wouldn't have to necessarily trade down. Just take him and pair him up with Ford and fix all our pass rushing issues. That isn't a terrible scenario in the least. Only thing it does is it makes it harder for us to get the WR Shanny wants, but there are good enough receivers we can get one in the 3rd. A lot of WRs in this class are pretty much on the same level. But just saying, I wouldn't be too upset if our first two picks are used on Bosa/Ford. Could do A LOT worse than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John232 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: If Bosa is available and the team really likes him, then we wouldn't have to necessarily trade down. Just take him and pair him up with Ford and fix all our pass rushing issues. That isn't a terrible scenario in the least. Only thing it does is it makes it harder for us to get the WR Shanny wants, but there are good enough receivers we can get one in the 3rd. A lot of WRs in this class are pretty much on the same level. But just saying, I wouldn't be too upset if our first two picks are used on Bosa/Ford. Could do A LOT worse than that. I would be ok with a trade down only if we selected someone like Burns. High upside passrusher to compliment, because losing out on Bosa/Ford combo is heart wrenching. In other words, I wouldn't be happy with a trade down unless it involved us only receiving compensation. IE Odell and 6th without giving up anything other than #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, John232 said: I would be ok with a trade down only if we selected someone like Burns. High upside passrusher to compliment, because losing out on Bosa/Ford combo is heart wrenching. In other words, I wouldn't be happy with a trade down unless it involved us only receiving compensation. IE Odell and 6th without giving up anything other than #2. That's just not realistic. If you want OBJ, going to have to give up something more than just a swap of 1sts. I'd be down with Burns for sure. Would get to in his rookie season just play mainly passing downs like Aldon did. That also fixes our pass rush issues and then gives us OBJ in that scenario. So all of a sudden we have a stacked pass rush with Burns/Thomas/Buckner/Ford and a stacked receiving core with Pettis/OBJ/Kittle/McKinnon. Sounds like a plan to me! But we better get Clinton-Dix or Amos or preferably ET in this scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John232 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: That's just not realistic. If you want OBJ, going to have to give up something more than just a swap of 1sts. I'd be down with Burns for sure. Would get to in his rookie season just play mainly passing downs like Aldon did. That also fixes our pass rush issues and then gives us OBJ in that scenario. So all of a sudden we have a stacked pass rush with Burns/Thomas/Buckner/Ford and a stacked receiving core with Pettis/OBJ/Kittle/McKinnon. Sounds like a plan to me! But we better get Clinton-Dix or Amos or preferably ET in this scenario. I know it's not exactly realistic, why I really don't want us to do it. I want OBJ, but I'm adamantly opposed to giving up future firsts or seconds. Even if we brought on OBJ and got someone like Ford, we'd still have a lot of holes that need to be fixed sooner rather than later. Most notably, tackle and we aren't grabbing a tackle next year in the second or third to step in right away, nor are we going to be in a place to overpay an average tackle in free agency. My max offer forOdell would be: OBJ+6 for #2, #36 and our first sixth rounder. eidt: I really don't want us to overthink this edge rusher thing. Stand PAT, grab Bosa and build up. Bosa is clearly the best in this class and has as much potential as any prospect we've seen come out recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2lamanaki Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Fureys49ers said: He’ll be 28 I believe with only two years of above average production. There are usually 4 pass rushers on an average pass play on every team, including the defensive tackles that have been more than capable of getting to the quarterback. That's essentially 128 starting players that will be going after the quarterback. His production is "above average" only in the sense that finishing 7th and 15th in the league is above the average of 64. I'm not saying I disagree with all of your points. But production-wise, he had two really good years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John232 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Also, I think it needs to be brought up again. We need more than two edge rushers. Watson and Marsh are not people we should be content with having as high frequency rotational players. This is why i'm ok dealing, for both Griffen and Ford ans signing Bosa. It's a lot of money at one position, but it won't be wasted. And if Griffen doesn't carry any dead money, than it's something we can afford. It also shouldn't prevent us from signing someone like ET. We have plenty of cap to fit Ford, ET, Griffen and another high priced FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, John232 said: I know it's not exactly realistic, why I really don't want us to do it. I want OBJ, but I'm adamantly opposed to giving up future firsts or seconds. Even if we brought on OBJ and got someone like Ford, we'd still have a lot of holes that need to be fixed sooner rather than later. Most notably, tackle and we aren't grabbing a tackle next year in the second or third to step in right away, nor are we going to be in a place to overpay an average tackle in free agency. My max offer forOdell would be: OBJ+6 for #2, #36 and our first sixth rounder. eidt: I really don't want us to overthink this edge rusher thing. Stand PAT, grab Bosa and build up. Bosa is clearly the best in this class and has as much potential as any prospect we've seen come out recently. Not opposed to getting Bosa at all. But would you rather have: Scenario 1: Bosa/Ford Scenario 2: Bosa/Keep 2nd rd pick Scenario 3: Ford/OBJ/Burns Because I'd be fine with either scenario but give me scenario 3 all day over the other two. We got a stud pass rusher in Ford, arguably the best speed rusher in the draft in Burns and a bonafide elite WR in OBJ. Is our pass rush THAT much better in scenario's 1 and 2 opposed to 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 Just now, J-ALL-DAY said: Not opposed to getting Bosa at all. But would you rather have: Scenario 1: Bosa/Ford Scenario 2: Bosa/Keep 2nd rd pick Scenario 3: Ford/OBJ/Burns Because I'd be fine with either scenario but give me scenario 3 all day over the other two. We got a stud pass rusher in Ford, arguably the best speed rusher in the draft in Burns and a bonafide elite WR in OBJ. Is our pass rush THAT much better in scenario's 1 and 2 opposed to 3? Honestly, still don't think obj is going anywhere, but yeah, that's the better one. Though would prefer sweat to Burns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John232 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Not opposed to getting Bosa at all. But would you rather have: Scenario 1: Bosa/Ford Scenario 2: Bosa/Keep 2nd rd pick Scenario 3: Ford/OBJ/Burns Because I'd be fine with either scenario but give me scenario 3 all day over the other two. We got a stud pass rusher in Ford, arguably the best speed rusher in the draft in Burns and a bonafide elite WR in OBJ. Is our pass rush THAT much better in scenario's 1 and 2 opposed to 3? Agreed that I would be fine with any of the scenarios, but scenario 1 and 2 would also have the hidden value of next years first..we also probably don't get Ford in scenario 3 as that second rounder would likely be going to NYG. So scenario 3 would still be OBJ/DE. Even if it wasn't and we still got Ford, I'd still take Scenario 1 or 2 because the other pick would be (potentially) the next starting tackle to replace Joe Staley, and if not Staley, then it could likely be another corner. All of which would push those scenario 1 and 2 ahead of 3 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, John232 said: Agreed that I would be fine with any of the scenarios, but scenario 1 and 2 would also have the hidden value of next years first..we also probably don't get Ford in scenario 3 as that second rounder would likely be going to NYG. So scenario 3 would still be OBJ/DE. Even if it wasn't and we still got Ford, I'd still take Scenario 1 or 2 because the other pick would be (potentially) the next starting tackle to replace Joe Staley, and if not Staley, then it could likely be another corner. All of which would push those scenario 1 and 2 ahead of 3 for me. Stop trying to tell me what my scenarios look like!!!! NYG will take our 2020 1st, not our 2019 2nd. Understand???? 25 minutes ago, Forge said: Honestly, still don't think obj is going anywhere, but yeah, that's the better one. Though would prefer sweat to Burns Definitely a Burns over Sweat guy. Especially if we get Ford? Then not all that concerned with Burns run defense weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherm Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 27 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Not opposed to getting Bosa at all. But would you rather have: Scenario 1: Bosa/Ford Scenario 2: Bosa/Keep 2nd rd pick Scenario 3: Ford/OBJ/Burns Because I'd be fine with either scenario but give me scenario 3 all day over the other two. We got a stud pass rusher in Ford, arguably the best speed rusher in the draft in Burns and a bonafide elite WR in OBJ. Is our pass rush THAT much better in scenario's 1 and 2 opposed to 3? Bosa and Ford with Buckner...yes please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John232 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Stop trying to tell me what my scenarios look like!!!! NYG will take our 2020 1st, not our 2019 2nd. Understand???? THEN LET ME HAVE MY DREAMS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Definitely a Burns over Sweat guy. Especially if we get Ford? Then not all that concerned with Burns run defense weakness. I think we will have sweat > Burns, personally. But that's just a guess on my part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.