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X-Men: Dark Phoenix (06/07/19)

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8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I have a hard time getting on them for not trying to do more.

wait, why? Trying to cram too much into a story is definitely up for critique no matter what the medium. Just doing other things well in the movie doesnt excuse it. 

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4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I dont think anyone is arguing they should've done more....more like they should have done LESS

Bingo. With Last Stand - less was definitely more.

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5 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I dont think anyone is arguing they should've done more....more like they should have done LESS.  As @ET80 stated, take out the Phoenix storyline and you would have a more focused story that didnt butcher and waste a beloved comic arc.  If there needed to be a secondary story, they could have gone a different way. However, I think just expanding the cure storyline and the war between mutants and humans and the XMen trying to restore order would be perfectly fine.

My main point is that I don't think focusing more on those storylines necessarily makes the movie better. There's something to be said for being concise and efficient with your scenes rather than beating each point to death.

The only people who feel that they "Butchered and wasted" a beloved comic book arc (and let's get that nonsense out of here right now. It's a cartoon arc that people are contrasting) are the people that held the expectation that the movie should have made the Phoenix arc comparable to the cartoon arc that they grew up with and aren't willing to view it in a vacuum. Was it good? No. Was it butchered and wasted? Obviously not. They didn't waste anything considering this was their last movie. 

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3 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

wait, why? Trying to cram too much into a story is definitely up for critique no matter what the medium. Just doing other things well in the movie doesnt excuse it. 

Which is exactly what I said. I'm not going to be critical of the production team for not trying to cram more content into an already extremely busy movie. 

I don't think they overshot what they wanted to do. 

Edited by AlexGreen#20

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2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

My main point is that I don't think focusing more on those storylines necessarily makes the movie better. There's something to be said for being concise and efficient with your scenes rather than beating each point to death.

The only people who feel that they "Butchered and wasted" a beloved comic book arc (and let's get that nonsense out of here right now. It's a cartoon arc that people are contrasting) are the people that held the expectation that the movie should have made the Phoenix arc comparable to the cartoon arc that they grew up with and aren't willing to view it in a vacuum. Was it good? No. Was it butchered and wasted? Obviously not. They didn't waste anything considering this was their last movie. 

Who said anything about beating each point to death?   The Phoenix stuff was rushed and forced in anyway.   Take it out altogether.

And no one is saying they needed to do the Phoenix storyline just like the cartoon or comic...but it was used as a side story and an extremely poorly done one at that.  Again, if they needed a side story, they could've went a different way...one that didnt feel completely forced in and unnecessary to the main story.

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Which is exactly what I said. I'm not going to be critical of the production team for not trying to cram more content into an already extremely busy movie. 

I don't think they overshot what they wanted to do. 

Except that's exactly what they did.. they crammed in the Phoenix storyline.

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3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I don't think they overshot what they wanted to do. 

They definitely overshot it. Last Stand had like 3 prominent story lines but gave the focus to the least developed of any of them. 

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I just remember the Phoenix stuff in Last Stand being really poorly explained/written/executed. They jumped back and forth between Jean being Jean, Jean being just a really angry and violent Jean, and Jean uncontrollably killing/destroying whatever happens to be closest to her. Like she was kind of able to be talked down by Logan, but she killed Cyclops because reasons? She was calm and palling around with the Brotherhood for awhile. But at the end she was uncontrollably killing everything.

Even as Phoenix I feel like there should've been reasons/motivations for the actions she took, and I don't think there ever were. It was just, she did thing because Phoenix.

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On 6/13/2019 at 6:48 AM, Jakuvious said:

I just remember the Phoenix stuff in Last Stand being really poorly explained/written/executed. They jumped back and forth between Jean being Jean, Jean being just a really angry and violent Jean, and Jean uncontrollably killing/destroying whatever happens to be closest to her. Like she was kind of able to be talked down by Logan, but she killed Cyclops because reasons? She was calm and palling around with the Brotherhood for awhile. But at the end she was uncontrollably killing everything.

Even as Phoenix I feel like there should've been reasons/motivations for the actions she took, and I don't think there ever were. It was just, she did thing because Phoenix.

Exactly.  It was just crammed in with no real plan for how to use the Phoenix arc whatsoever.  It was almost like it was only forced in because of how X2 ended.   Singer probably knew where he wanted to take it, and when Ratner took over, they just threw it in because he felt he had to.

PS....Haha, I just realized Kinsberg helped write Last Stand, and then he whiffed again on Dark Phoenix.  Wow.

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13 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Exactly.  It was just crammed in with no real plan for how to use the Phoenix arc whatsoever.  It was almost like it was only forced in because of how X2 ended.   Singer probably knew where he wanted to take it, and when Ratner took over, they just threw it in because he felt he had to.

PS....Haha, I just realized Kinsberg helped write Last Stand, and then he whiffed again on Dark Phoenix.  Wow.

He also wrote Fant4****, and xXX: State of the Union and Jumper before that, which was my argumentation at the time for why he's not infallible and it would still end up being the colossal trainwreck all the well-documented production problems led us to believe, and I was right. Boy was I ever, it sucked heavily. It's by far the worst Fox Marvel film and one of the worst CBMs ever made. Literally everything about it was godawful.

That said, Dark Phoenix was suffering from similar production issues, so I'm not sure you can lay all the blame squarely at his feet for that, either.

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19 minutes ago, KManX89 said:

He also wrote Fant4****, and xXX: State of the Union and Jumper before that, which was my argumentation at the time for why he's not infallible and it would still end up being the colossal trainwreck all the well-documented production problems led us to believe, and I was right. Boy was I ever, it sucked heavily. It's by far the worst Fox Marvel film and one of the worst CBMs ever made. Literally everything about it was godawful.

That said, Dark Phoenix was suffering from similar production issues, so I'm not sure you can lay all the blame squarely at his feet for that, either.

Not all his fault, but still stupid to hire him in the first place.

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On 6/15/2019 at 11:00 AM, Deadpulse said:

Going to see this in about an hour. Ill be back with my thoughts

How many times did you watch it?

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3 hours ago, DirtyDez said:

How many times did you watch it?

Some people say he’s still watching it somewhere 

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On 6/15/2019 at 1:40 PM, FourThreeMafia said:

Not all his fault, but still stupid to hire him in the first place.

Especially as a first-time director, though like Fant4ish and the new Hellboy, it was probably another case of it being beyond saving with all the pre-production shenanigans, especially since Fox knew this was their swan song for their own X-Men universe. They stopped caring because they're given no reason to at this point.

Edited by KManX89

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Here's the thing - it's one thing if you are going to take a beloved comic arc, and make it different.   There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you execute your version in a way that's organic, and that delivers on the potential it offers.

The movie has Dark Phoenix as the freaking title.   There were at least 2 major references to it at the end of the last movie.  All the ads focused on Jean turning into Dark Phoenix.  But we shouldn't bag on the movie for underwhelming on its delivery, and making it a total side arc, rather than the focus?   The movie writers & producers & directors made this call - even if they had a vision to make the Phoenix angle play out over 2 movies....what they chose to do is just poor movie-scripting, to reduce it to a side-show, then produce the arc as a side-story.      Honestly, if they had ended the movie with the Phoenix arc unresolved, but had given it enough time to have it reach that stage, no one would likely criticize it as much as it's getting now for delivering an afterthought arc in this area..when it's billed as the main event.

Forget the fact that the Phoenix arc is a gold mine that should leverage a great story, no matter if you deviate from the comic arc.   They chose to make the arc the previous movie hinted at big things with both Apocalypse's line and Jean's appearance, the entire pre-movie trailer releases, and yes, the title.....into a side story.    No matter how ppl make excuses for it...it's just inexcusable. 

Edited by Broncofan

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