GDT Week 4: KC @ DEN

[champ11]

8 hours ago, Broncofan said:

The painful part is that the QB choices are so much iffier this year...than last.   And we passed on last year because we thought Keenum was good enough to stall the Q's.  It's taken all of 4 games to show the fallacy there.  I love Kubiak's overall legacy but he & Elway really have to own this decision.   It's really looking like a franchise-turning decision if Kelly isn't the long-term answer.   Sigh.

It's the issue with having a lame duck coach. The ownership, front office, and coaching staff are on different pages and it's frankly not a recipe for success. Talking the last couple offseasons about championship aspirations was a joke. If Elway hired a coach that was good for the long haul they could make joint, long term decisions that are overall better for the franchise.....but instead they made win now choices.

Taking Rosen at 5 would have been a nail in the coffin for Vance. It wasn't going to happen even though it 100% should have. The team wasn't rebuilding even though they 100% should have. It's just really frustrating watching this half *** attempt at a rebuild. 

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, Royal_VT said:

Quick hits:

Mahomes is really good (Hunt, Kelce, Hill too...). Love both of our running backs, hope Lindsay can up his pass pro game so Booker doesn't lead the team in snaps. Sutton impressed too, as did Janovich. Thought the D played well, were obviously tasked with doing too much in the 2H due to us abandoning the run. How many times did we run for 10+ yard on first down in the 1H, only to not go back to the run in 2H? Crazy. 

Did Von seem hurt to anyone else? I wasn't noticing him on the field as much in the 4Q as I expected, I know he got tired chasing Mahomes across the field on a few plays, but was there something else? 

Oh yeah and screw Keenum. So frustrating, some of his decisions...throws...ugh. Agree though, we aren't seeing Kelly before week 15 at least.

I don't know what week it is, but I think it's more the principle of only seeing Keenum benched whenever we are eliminated from playoff contention.  Once that happens, all bets are off.   In a bad AFC, though, it could be Week 15...but if we lose next week, the schedule could have us on a huge spiral (@ARI the only game I see as one where we'd be favorites for a while).   I could see late November if we are eliminated.

One thing we have to remember - Kelly needs the practice reps.  I mean, the Chiefs didn't put Mahomes out there until Week 17 (yes, they had Alex Smith, who is meh, but still MILES better than Keenum).    As much as we want Kelly out there to show us what long-term hope we have with him, we do have to balance the need to let him get his feet under him with NFL speed (and no, sorry, no way preseason is even close to regular season-speed, a full-season of practice and film is actually more helpful than 2.5 games of facing pre-season vanilla D's).

[champ11]

Also you guys should save your energy on calling for Kelly. Not happening 

[champ11]

7 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I think the last two offseasons there have two critical mistakes at the two most important parts of a team - QB and head coach. What do they say? Picking a team to win, especially late in the year, pick the better HC/QB combo. It almost always works (last year's Super Bowl being the exception that proves the rule, lol). 

But taking Vance instead of Kyle and Keenum/Chubb when we could have taken a Rosen/Allen I think that, long term, come back to bite us. I get the logic in signing Keenum -  Elway needed to keep the veterans on his side and give them a chance to win now and the franchise needs to win now for financial reasons - and I am not ragging on Chubb, he's going to be a good player for us for a long time. I also get Elway being gun-shy about taking a QB early, he missed on the last one and Rosen/Allen were (and still are) far form sure-fire picks. But I even told the lady when we picked Chubb, I loved the pick, but I worry we'll regret passing on Allen/Rosen. 

As far as Vance over Kyle, everyone knew that was a mistake the minute it was announced. 

This is it. And don't forget we didn't just miss out on QBs this year bc of Paxton/Keenum.....We missed out on making moves for Mahomes or Watson etc last year because we were investing development in Lynch.

Elway blew his coaching hire and his QBOTF choice. Most situations you are getting fired. 

I just had some negative posts, but last night was a great game and I am ecstatic with some of the performances last night. Just a brutal close out. 

[Broncofan]

12 minutes ago, champ11 said:

It's the issue with having a lame duck coach. The ownership, front office, and coaching staff are on different pages and it's frankly not a recipe for success. Talking the last couple offseasons about championship aspirations was a joke. If Elway hired a coach that was good for the long haul they could make joint, long term decisions that are overall better for the franchise.....but instead they made win now choices.

Taking Rosen at 5 would have been a nail in the coffin for Vance. It wasn't going to happen even though it 100% should have. The team wasn't rebuilding even though they 100% should have. It's just really frustrating watching this half *** attempt at a rebuild. 

No argument there.  It's just frustrating.  The draft was otherwise a huge success.  And Chubb isn't chopped liver.  But restructuring Von to give us 16M to spend, and to spend it on Clinton McDonald, Tramaine Brock, and trading for Veldheer...and yes, Keenum.  All to "contend" in 2018.  That was the one fatal flaw that our org is going to pay for a couple of years minimum.  We might get lucky, and Kelly will bail out Elway - but then it's just pure luck - as no way Elway targets Kirk Cousins as 1A in Free Agency, and Sam Darnold in the draft at the top of his board...if he thought Kelly was bankable.  Then again, I'll always take lucky over good when it happens, can't always be skill in football talent evaluation lol.

I will echo the statement that for all my negativity on Keenum, the choices made at QB, and on our OL pass blocking / OC game calling - at least we showed real hope with the young guys.   It's just a crushing way to lose a game we had zero business losing, but for horrible QB play, questionable play calling, and a magician performance you can only tip your cap to and salute with Mahomes.

Then again, we had zero business winning vs. OAK, so now the shoe's on the other foot.   Still, there's a lot to be hopeful for long-term - I just hope Elway wakes up and realizes we have to commit to youth and development - no more stopgap measures.  Frankly, if we didn't do that in 2018 with Davis/McDonald/Keenum/Brock, we'd probably be 1-3 - but in way better shape for 2019.   And for all the justification that you have to keep the vets' loyalty - I bet the vets would be far happier with a Josh Rosen in the fold over what Case Keenum brings to them...and it's only Week 4.    Make the right decisions, and it's funny how established vets won't object over going young with rookies.   I mean, the rookies are a HUGE part of why we're better.   It's just too bad Elway didn't realize that holds just as much for QB, when you're faced with mediocre vet talent as the alternative - either way, we were going to struggle, we just sacrificed being better in the future to try to be marginally better in 2018 - and that gamble with Keenum is looking like snake eyes in a huge way. 

[champ11]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Keenum is who he is. Why the Denver FO thought he could be more is incomprehensible. They completely mismanaged the QB position in the draft. Rosen IMO is going to be the real deal and really feared Denver would take him.

Chubb really isn't jumping off the screen yet and unless he is an all-pro, not taking a QB could prove to be a mistake. 

That said, there is a QB in Justin Herbert who if in a position to land this year, they need to make it happen.

I think Denver knew what they were getting with Keenum. They made the active decision to get an average at best QB (which is what Keenum is) rather than taking the prospect. 

Chubb did have a pretty nice game, but yeah he's not going to be a star

[Royal_VT]

20 minutes ago, champ11 said:

This is it. And don't forget we didn't just miss out on QBs this year bc of Paxton/Keenum.....We missed out on making moves for Mahomes or Watson etc last year because we were investing development in Lynch.

Elway blew his coaching hire and his QBOTF choice. Most situations you are getting fired. 

I just had some negative posts, but last night was a great game and I am ecstatic with some of the performances last night. Just a brutal close out. 

I think this is how most of us feel. Like crap there were some parts of the game that we looked like a legit contender. Definitely some things to look forward to! But "we are who we thought we were".

[champ11]

11 minutes ago, Royal_VT said:

I think this is how most of us feel. Like crap there were some parts of the game that we looked like a legit contender. Definitely some things to look forward to! But "we are who we thought we were".

I definitely don't think we're contenders, but if there were a couple different pieces in this organization I think we have a really nice foundation.

I'd love to see some more flashes out of the young defensive guys. Roby and Chubb had pretty nice games....would love to see more from Simmons and Shaq/Ray.

Are they holding Shaq's snap count to try and sign him for cheap? lol 

[anewdawn]

21 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think Denver knew what they were getting with Keenum. They made the active decision to get an average at best QB (which is what Keenum is) rather than taking the prospect. 

Chubb did have a pretty nice game, but yeah he's not going to be a star

The thing is - is that Keenum isn't even average.  I usually pull for our QB but I really had a wait and see attitude with Keenum.  I was hoping he would be the answer and thought he would be manageable.  Now that he isn't, (I mean I think I got a stronger arm and I'm 55 ps I know I don't), everything looks bad.  The choice of Chubb over Rosen for example and I was so high on Chubb and still am but without a starting QB the choice of Chubb is questionable.  And r we actually stuck with Keenum for two years?  If so our future is really delayed I believe, though this draft class has a lot of gems but was it an anomaly or the start of  successful drafts?  Time will tell.

     But overall I think it's the coaching!  Woods just sucks and it still bothers me how we treated and dumped Wade.  I couldn't imagine how improved our D would be under Wade.  Vance is a joke too and Musgrave just seems confused to me but with the limitations and play of Case I would be confused too - thinking this is what I got to work with?  

     After the draft and with the hope of Case I thought we might actually take our division.  I was hoping Mahomes would falter this year, I know that LAC always falters and Oak was a given to falter so I thought we could retake it.  One note - I am so  TIRED ABOUT HEARING ABOUT MAHOMES!!  Its all they talked about last night.  I told my son it will be the last game I watch this guy play so I will miss the next 30 or so games against the Chiefs.......lmao   

[BroncosFan2010]

This team is borderline unwatchable with Case at the helm. Thats all I will say. I dont think we would be noticeably better or worse w/ Blaine Gabbert as our starter, and 2016 Trevor Siemien at least inspired some hope.

Its just mind blowing. Case is given 18M after a single season of above average play in ideal conditions. Its like Elway refused to look at evidence prior to 2017 when evaluating Case. We could have had Fitpatrick for peanuts, at least he has an arm.

Of QB's w/ 100+ pass attempts, Case is only better than Josh Allen per rating (72 vs 63).

[champ11]

56 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

This team is borderline unwatchable with Case at the helm. Thats all I will say. I dont think we would be noticeably better or worse w/ Blaine Gabbert as our starter, and 2016 Trevor Siemien at least inspired some hope.

Its just mind blowing. Case is given 18M after a single season of above average play in ideal conditions. Its like Elway refused to look at evidence prior to 2017 when evaluating Case. We could have had Fitpatrick for peanuts, at least he has an arm.

Of QB's w/ 100+ pass attempts, Case is only better than Josh Allen per rating (72 vs 63).

Woof, that rating stat is brutal.

To be fair...Case is significantly better than Siemian. He can at least improvise a little bit. That 4th and short (wild play call btw) would have been hilarious with Siemian or Lynch. Value for the price certainly is debatable 

[lomaxgrUK]

2 hours ago, champ11 said:

Just a brutal close out. 

At least you guys ENDED your day with the game; I got up at 5.30am to watch it. Honestly had people I manage coming up to me asking what was wrong, whilst I sit at my desk with a sulk on ...

Heartbreaking loss.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, lomaxgrUK said:

At least you guys ENDED your day with the game; I got up at 5.30am to watch it. Honestly had people I manage coming up to me asking what was wrong, whilst I sit at my desk with a sulk on ...

Heartbreaking loss.

TBH I don't know that I could be at work right after watching.  I think I went to bed 3.5 hours after still gutted.

Side note - I think I know what it's like to be a Chargers fan now (my brother's a huge one, he says this is a classic "take a loss from jaws of victory" during the Mike McCoy era).

[AKRNA]

Legwold voices my game impressions quite well.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/31969/broncos-lose-their-balance-then-lose-the-game-against-chiefs

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

TBH I don't know that I could be at work right after watching.  I think I went to bed 3.5 hours after still gutted.

I had a cold last night and honestly, I was glad. It kept me in a bad mood the entire game. It meant I didnt have to experience 3 quarters of positive adreneline rush followed by the horrible crush of defeat. I just coughed instead.