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diamondbull424

What to do with CJ Mosley?

CJ Mosley in FA  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. CJ Mosley in FA

    • He’s a top ILB we should give him a top 5 ILB money.
    • He’s a declining option, but has value. Offer a top 10 money and see what happens.
    • He’s a declining option, let him walk for a compensatory pick


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2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yeah I think if he wants Kuechly/Wagner money, let him walk without any hesitation.

To be clear, Wagner's deal isn't in the conversation here. It's actually pretty middling for the top deals at that position right now. Especially the guaranteed money. Mark Barron has a better deal than him. If the Ravens could get C.J. at that price they would have already.

It will be interesting to see what the market for Mosley (and inside linebackers in general) is. I agree that the team is going to let him test it out, that's usually the case if an extension isn't in place by now. The only one that got done late recently is Williams' IIRC. That one really came down to the last minute. 

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23 minutes ago, coordinator0 said:

To be clear, Wagner's deal isn't in the conversation here. It's actually pretty middling for the top deals at that position right now. Especially the guaranteed money. Mark Barron has a better deal than him. If the Ravens could get C.J. at that price they would have already.

It will be interesting to see what the market for Mosley (and inside linebackers in general) is. I agree that the team is going to let him test it out, that's usually the case if an extension isn't in place by now. The only one that got done late recently is Williams' IIRC. That one really came down to the last minute. 

You're right, I forgot that Wagner was extended a few years ago. But if Mosley wants Kuechly money we better just GTFO of that negotiation and let him take that to another team and reap our 3rd round comp pick we get.

I have this feeling though that this organization still, for some reason, views him as Ray Lewis' replacement and as an elite ILB when there's literally nothing backing that up statistically. I feel they're going to massively overpay him and his play will continue to be at the level it is now, except the team media will continue to portray him as this irreplaceable piece of the defense who has massive impact on games and is a superstar. 

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I didn't realize that ILB/OLB franchise numbers are combined.  That makes tagging him completely untenable.

I went with the middle option, although I hesitate to use the word "declining."  He's in his age 26 season, so a five year deal would take him to 31, which is completely reasonable.  I'd like to see us resign him on something like 5/$50mm with a lower % guaranteed if possible (seems in line with "second tier" deals at the position + inflation).  At the very least I wouldn't want us to have to invest a higher round pick in the upcoming draft at the position.

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55 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

You're right, I forgot that Wagner was extended a few years ago. But if Mosley wants Kuechly money we better just GTFO of that negotiation and let him take that to another team and reap our 3rd round comp pick we get.

I have this feeling though that this organization still, for some reason, views him as Ray Lewis' replacement and as an elite ILB when there's literally nothing backing that up statistically. I feel they're going to massively overpay him and his play will continue to be at the level it is now, except the team media will continue to portray him as this irreplaceable piece of the defense who has massive impact on games and is a superstar. 

Two things:

(1) I doubt they view him as anything approximating Ray Lewis, or even close, as that is an unfair standard by which to judge anyone.

(2) I think your comment on there being nothing statistically to justify him as a upper-echelon starting ILB is a bit unfair.  He's made 2nd team all-pro 3 out of 4 full seasons.  Yes, that's a voted-upon award, but it's still indicative of league-wide perception and gives us a much more comprehensive assessment than simply "elite" vs. "not-elite."  Of his four full seasons, he's been top-10 in total tackles twice and top-15 once.  The one year he fell out of the top-15 was when he only played 14 games.  He currently has 8 sacks and 8 interceptions in his career over essentially 4 seasons' worth of games (65).  If you were to give him six years of extrapolated production (a big assumption, I know), that would land him in the illustrious 20-20 club.  It's probably more-likely-than-not that he misses that combined benchmark (injury, decline, etc.), but worth noting.  As far as pass coverage deficiencies in the middle of the field, this seems to be a complaint that almost every team has, so I'm not sure it's the black mark on his resume that it's been made to be (do I wish he were better there? yes; but I'm not sure it's something we can easily improve by swapping him for another player).  Taken together, I think you may be minimizing what he's been able to do as a player during his tenure in Baltimore.

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23 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

Two things:

(1) I doubt they view him as anything approximating Ray Lewis, or even close, as that is an unfair standard by which to judge anyone.

(2) I think your comment on there being nothing statistically to justify him as a upper-echelon starting ILB is a bit unfair.  He's made 2nd team all-pro 3 out of 4 full seasons.  Yes, that's a voted-upon award, but it's still indicative of league-wide perception and gives us a much more comprehensive assessment than simply "elite" vs. "not-elite."  Of his four full seasons, he's been top-10 in total tackles twice and top-15 once.  The one year he fell out of the top-15 was when he only played 14 games.  He currently has 8 sacks and 8 interceptions in his career over essentially 4 seasons' worth of games (65).  If you were to give him six years of extrapolated production (a big assumption, I know), that would land him in the illustrious 20-20 club.  It's probably more-likely-than-not that he misses that combined benchmark (injury, decline, etc.), but worth noting.  As far as pass coverage deficiencies in the middle of the field, this seems to be a complaint that almost every team has, so I'm not sure it's the black mark on his resume that it's been made to be (do I wish he were better there? yes; but I'm not sure it's something we can easily improve by swapping him for another player).  Taken together, I think you may be minimizing what he's been able to do as a player during his tenure in Baltimore.

Do you think if you replaced CJ Mosley with someone like Darren Lee, Jaylon Smith, Zach Brown, etc. etc. that their stats would look similar?

I can tell you that from watching the Panthers and Seahawks, Kuechly and Wagner dominate the middle of the field, whereas CJ Mosley looks completely lost in coverage on a weekly basis. Now, he may not have been 100% this past week, but he played every single defensive snap which, to me, indicates that the team felt he was 100% and I didn't see any limitations in his movements - he just looked lost and looked slow, and that's been a theme since at least last year.

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Taking a step back, I think the CJ negotiations are going to be really interesting also because it's one of DeCosta's first big decisions to make and it'll say a lot about how different or not different he is from Ozzie in terms of his vision/approach. If Ozzie was our GM moving forward, I'd be pretty certain that we were going to re-sign CJ and that he was going to be billed as one of the centerpieces of the the team. Ozzie has always been kind of old school in the way he builds his teams and likes to put a premium on run-stoppers - in recent years he tried more to help out the pass rush and corner situations, but along the way he still gave big money deals to guys like Brandon Williams and Tony Jefferson. I think CJ's very much an Ozzie kind of player but his drawbacks are also consistent with the ways in which our defense sometimes failed to keep up with the times in recent years, particularly in terms of athleticism/explosiveness and the ability to defend in space. 

If DeCosta is simply an Ozzie disciple, he may follow that same path and spend big to keep CJ here. But if he's looking to take a different approach - maybe even a more 'modern' approach - then this is the sort of decision that represents an opportunity to break with the past. 

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1 hour ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Taking a step back, I think the CJ negotiations are going to be really interesting also because it's one of DeCosta's first big decisions to make and it'll say a lot about how different or not different he is from Ozzie in terms of his vision/approach. If Ozzie was our GM moving forward, I'd be pretty certain that we were going to re-sign CJ and that he was going to be billed as one of the centerpieces of the the team. Ozzie has always been kind of old school in the way he builds his teams and likes to put a premium on run-stoppers - in recent years he tried more to help out the pass rush and corner situations, but along the way he still gave big money deals to guys like Brandon Williams and Tony Jefferson. I think CJ's very much an Ozzie kind of player but his drawbacks are also consistent with the ways in which our defense sometimes failed to keep up with the times in recent years, particularly in terms of athleticism/explosiveness and the ability to defend in space. 

If DeCosta is simply an Ozzie disciple, he may follow that same path and spend big to keep CJ here. But if he's looking to take a different approach - maybe even a more 'modern' approach - then this is the sort of decision that represents an opportunity to break with the past. 

I tend to disagree. You make it seem as if Ozzie has a tendency to favor run stoppers over pass coverage defenders, when looking at the history we’ve given second contracts/extensions to studs like Ed Reed (of course), Lardarius Webb, and Jimmy Smith.

You mention signing Brandon Williams and Tony Jefferson to big deals because of their run stopping ability, but fail to mention that Ozzie recruited and brought in both Brandon Carr and Eric Weddle, who were known quantities as coverage options. We let Courtney Upshaw, a dominant run stopping LB, move on in free agency. McPhee we also let move on. We signed Ray Lewis and Terrell Suggs, but let Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas go.

If anything that sounds a lot like right player, right price. You’d have a strong argument that we’ve definitely preferred defense to offense and you could argue that such is a bit of a “less modern” approach (though outside of only the most recent renditions of the Patriots, defense seems to be the common denominator in Championship teams of the past couple decades, making it quite “modern”), but definitely not with prioritizing cap space to run stoppers over coverage options.

So back to Mosley, I won’t deny that Ozzie running things MIGHT resign him, but I also wouldn’t doubt it if he didn’t resign him. I think Ozzie would most likely fall in the 2nd option of the pole. I’d guess he’d offer something in the high 40s with more guaranteed dollars than the other players have received. Something like 5 yrs/$48m with $27.5m guaranteed. That way he gets more guaranteed dollars than Kuechly, but still gets him at a “reasonable” amount. Thus establishing a sort of win-win. But if Mosley refused that deal and/or someone offers him more than he walks. That’s how I see Ozzie operating. But both of our takes on this area are conjecture, so it is what it is, I suppose.

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@diamondbull424 I think when you look at how the roster has been structured for a long while now, Ozzie tends to favor guys in the front 7 who can primarily stop the run vs. athletic guys who can run. Even though we let Upshaw walk and Mcphee walk, their replacements were still run stoppers, not pass rushers. It wasn't until last year (Tim Williams and Tyus Bowser) and this year (Kenny Young) that we really placed an emphasis on modernizing our approach to defensive drafting with more athletic guys on the whole. I think that's what @BaltimoreTerp is more or less referring to.

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1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

@diamondbull424 I think when you look at how the roster has been structured for a long while now, Ozzie tends to favor guys in the front 7 who can primarily stop the run vs. athletic guys who can run. Even though we let Upshaw walk and Mcphee walk, their replacements were still run stoppers, not pass rushers. It wasn't until last year (Tim Williams and Tyus Bowser) and this year (Kenny Young) that we really placed an emphasis on modernizing our approach to defensive drafting with more athletic guys on the whole. I think that's what @BaltimoreTerp is more or less referring to.

But that has nothing to do with devoted cap space. The main point is assuming that Ozzie would resign CJ Mosley because of his “run stopping gifts” whereas, we’ve seen Ozzie let a similar player in Bart Scott go. Granted Scott wasn’t a former first round pick of the team and we were having to choose between the younger Scott and the older Ray... and we chose Ray obviously, but still.

My point is that there isn’t evidence to justify the fact that Ozzie would resign Mosley for run stopping reasons vs letting him walk and finding a run stuffing ILB prospect in the draft/UDFA.

Our roster formation has been focused on run stuffers and experienced technician vs athletes, but that isn’t synonymous with our cap biases being of the same mold. 

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Ravens FO will re-sign him and don't be surprised if Mosley becomes the highest paid ILB in the NFL.

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21 minutes ago, warrenblue said:

Ravens FO will re-sign him and don't be surprised if Mosley becomes the highest paid ILB in the NFL.

None of this would surprise me. It's clear this organization views Mosley as something he's not. 

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10 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

None of this would surprise me. It's clear this organization views Mosley as something he's not. 

Who do you view as key players in this defense?  They have been very successful as of late (despite some obvious failures), but I get the sense that you don't think any of our players are that good.  Who is worth paying and retaining?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

Who do you view as key players in this defense?  They have been very successful as of late (despite some obvious failures), but I get the sense that you don't think any of our players are that good.  Who is worth paying and retaining?

We don't really have any young centerpieces of this defense worth paying massive contracts to right now (though Marlon Humphrey and Tim Williams are certainly on their way there). But, the key players on this defense (age aside) are:

Brandon Williams, Terrell Suggs, CJ Mosley, Jimmy Smith and Eric Weddle

When it comes to who is worth paying and retaining, hindsight is 20/20 but given hindsight I'd have let Brandon Williams walk and ran with Michael Pierce. I'd let Mosley walk and go with Kenny Young, but I also would've drafted Derwin James so that when Weddle retires and Jefferson is booted we have our future S centerpiece.

I'm fine with us giving Mosley a contract that puts him in the top 10 ILB's in the NFL, but highest paid is just ridiculous for a guy who can't play in space.

Edited by AFlaccoSeagulls

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I wish we could dump Mosley before the deadline for a 2nd round pick to a team dumb enough to trade for his slow *** (mentally and physically). 

I'd rather let Weddle call the plays and have Young start and play with Peanut/Levine.

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Just now, BareYourTeeth said:

I wish we could dump Mosley before the deadline for a 2nd round pick to a team dumb enough to trade for his slow *** (mentally and physically). 

I'd rather let Weddle call the plays and have Young start and play with Peanut/Levine.

FWIW, Mosley didn't have the radio yesterday. I watched the stream and noticed that his helmet didn't have the green sticker.

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