Broncofan Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, jsthomp2007 said: I think Kubiak does though....did we not notice how much better the draft was with Kubiak in as a consultant on personnel decisions? Like, really, where would Elway be without Kubiak?? I think there is probably some QB talent in the 2019 draft. I like the OSU QB...if Herbert comes out college for the draft, I am all-in....and that is totally an Elway pick too though...but it seems like unlike Lynch, Herbert doesn't have accuracy issues. Kubiak was the main guy responsible for taking Keenum, it's well-documented. And his HOU record speaks to what @BroncoBruin was referring to - always taking underdog cerebral types that he can "coach up". Kubiak was also around when Oz was a FA and green-lit the Oz extension. Listen, I love that the 2018 draft has emphasized more metrics and football skills, and Kubiak should share in some of the credit. But he deserves a TON of the blame on QB evaluation. He's sadly not part of the solution, he's been part of the problem with us. It doesn't mean it's not fixable, but I don't think we can blindly say Kubiak being around will help our QB evaluation, given his own track record iffiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Broncofan said: Kubiak was the main guy responsible for taking Keenum, it's well-documented. And his HOU record speaks to what @BroncoBruin was referring to - always taking underdog cerebral types that he can "coach up". Kubiak was also around when Oz was a FA and green-lit the Oz extension. Listen, I love that the 2018 draft has emphasized more metrics and football skills, and Kubiak should share in some of the credit. But he deserves a TON of the blame on QB evaluation. He's sadly not part of the solution, he's been part of the problem with us. It doesn't mean it's not fixable, but I don't think we can blindly say Kubiak being around will help our QB evaluation, given his own track record iffiness. What was the turnaround for the last draft class though? This was one of the better ones, unless Elway and Co. finally figured things out. If they can nail down a QB, some linemen, and a CB in the next draft class, then things look good. However, this is all moot if we don't get the right coaches in...talent helps...talent with coaching allows us to compete with the Chiefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said: What was the turnaround for the last draft class though? This was one of the better ones, unless Elway and Co. finally figured things out. If they can nail down a QB, some linemen, and a CB in the next draft class, then things look good. However, this is all moot if we don't get the right coaches in...talent helps...talent with coaching allows us to compete with the Chiefs. Hey, there's no argument on the 2018 results (except passing on QB 1.5, but let's not go there, it's beaten to death - it's not like Chubb is chopped liver, so it's not a wasted pick, either) so far. But it's meaningless without the right coach...and finding a QB. Teams can win without a franchise QB - but they literally have to be perfect everywhere else where it matters (strong trench play, elite-level D, solid run game, and coaching that wins games in playoffs where teams are evenly matched - we literally had all of that minus RT play in 2015, but without even 1 of those elements, well, we saw the results in 2016, when our D stepped back with Malik/Trevathan's departure). And in that regard, Kubiak's not really part of the solution. Hopefully we can get there, just hard to think Elway/Kubiak alone can figure it out. It's a big reason why I think we need to O-guru as the next HC - so they can add a devil's advocate perspective on the next QB we target - because on their own, Elway/Kubiak have whiffed hard each time. Adding more methods like metrics and a skills-based approach did wonders for their 2018 draft results (although picking in the 5 spot also helps a ton, you can't argue the Rd 2-4 results so far, especially compared to Elway's old results). Hopefully doing the same for QB evaluation will help...just the 2019 draft class isn't a great one to invest early draft capital. 2020, though, absolutely is. The Q is whether we'll wait that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Hey, there's no argument on the 2018 results (except passing on QB 1.5, but let's not go there, it's beaten to death - it's not like Chubb is chopped liver, so it's not a wasted pick, either) so far. But it's meaningless without the right coach...and finding a QB. Teams can win without a franchise QB - but they literally have to be perfect everywhere else where it matters (strong trench play, elite-level D, solid run game, and coaching that wins games in playoffs where teams are evenly matched - we literally had all of that minus RT play in 2015, but without even 1 of those elements, well, we saw the results in 2016, when our D stepped back with Malik/Trevathan's departure). And in that regard, Kubiak's not really part of the solution. Hopefully we can get there, just hard to think Elway/Kubiak alone can figure it out. It's a big reason why I think we need to O-guru as the next HC - so they can add a devil's advocate perspective on the next QB we target - because on their own, Elway/Kubiak have whiffed hard each time. Adding more methods like metrics and a skills-based approach did wonders for their 2018 draft results (although picking in the 5 spot also helps a ton, you can't argue the Rd 2-4 results so far). Hopefully doing the same for QB evaluation will help...just the 2019 draft class isn't a great one to invest early draft capital. 2020, though, absolutely is. The Q is whether we'll wait that long. I bet there is a QB in the next draft class...by the time we get to the combine...we are usually way off on who the best prospects are anyway. I think strategy needs to be, though, drafting a QB in the 3-4th round, versus trying to land the next Brady in the 7th round...I think you can get a Kirk Cousins, Russell Wilson, on the earlier round (obviously)...I'd just put all my chips there the way Shanahan did with Robert Griffen and Cousins...if your one real need is QB...f***cking go for all of them and see who pans out...the probability increases of finding a franchise guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said: I bet there is a QB in the next draft class...by the time we get to the combine...we are usually way off on who the best prospects are anyway. I think strategy needs to be, though, drafting a QB in the 3-4th round, versus trying to land the next Brady in the 7th round...I think you can get a Kirk Cousins, Russell Wilson, on the earlier round (obviously)...I'd just put all my chips there the way Shanahan did with Robert Griffen and Cousins...if your one real need is QB...f***cking go for all of them and see who pans out...the probability increases of finding a franchise guy. Normally, the idea of going Rd 3-4 is fool's gold. Literally for every Dak, Cousins or Wilson, there are about 20-25 washouts for each guy - it's not even a 10 percent hit rate that late. Given that, I wouldn't have wanted to go that route this past year, TBH, not with so many top-end guys who really have the franchise ceiling skill set. And I wouldn't want to do it in 2020, if it looks as deep as it's going to be. But next year, for 2018 the top-end 2019 draft class is so meh, I'd probably rather go there - if only that it also does NOT prevent us from hitting 2020's class hard, if we find out the 2019 guy we picked up is mostly backup material. If we invest in 2019 Rd1 or even Rd2 pick...we're going to be hard pressed to not give that guy a chance in 2020. And while the QB draft class has no top-end guys, there are probably 7-8 guys who deserve to have some sort of look - just nowhere near the certainty of being even league-average. But if there are 7 guys like that...well, going Rd3-4 is more likely to be possible. I'm also fine with giving up a 2019 3rd-4th for Carr - because then it's a year-to-year tryout, and you walk away if he's not fixable. Again, same idea though - you give up a pick you are willing to part with as the cost of doing business for auditioning iffy QB's. To me, that's somewhere around 3rd-4th round (some years, like 2017-2018, I wouldn't even want the mid-late 3rd, because the overall draft depth is so strong, so many good impact players still left - I'm actually not so sure that's the case for 2019 yet). The issue is at 20M a year, if we're wrong, well, we've really invested 30M in QB next year (10M dead money to cut Keenum), and still aren't further ahead. It's why no doubt, the rookie path will seem appealing - except the rookies are just nowhere near worth the early draft capital as 2018's class was, not even close to the same risk/reward profile. The reason why I don't think it's likely though that we take that approach - Elway & our fanbase are just not patient enough to accept 2019 as a lost year. That's our downfall. If we had approached 2018 like a lost year - we'd have hit QB 1.5, and while it would have cost us Chubb, it would have also given us a clear direction on our future O. But it would have also meant VJ was a lame duck HC, and it would have meant we were giving up on 2018 - and that's not a notion Elway, or our fanbase, embraces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 There is no science to picking a QB...if there was...there would be 32 teams who had pro bowl caliber QBs. I mean, how many #1 overalls have busted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 What did Chad Kelly do to be released. I've read the details but if you truly think the guy could of been your future potential qbotf. I really think one night of synthetic weed should be overlooked. Couldn't we of gotten him help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosfan07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, thebestever6 said: What did Chad Kelly do to be released. I've read the details but if you truly think the guy could of been your future potential qbotf. I really think one night of synthetic weed should be overlooked. Couldn't we of gotten him help? It's not just one night though. He's repeatedly gotten himself into trouble at every level he's played at. There's a multitude of reasons he dropped in the draft including his ACL tear but you cannot have his history and expect nothing to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, broncosfan07 said: It's not just one night though. He's repeatedly gotten himself into trouble at every level he's played at. There's a multitude of reasons he dropped in the draft including his ACL tear but you cannot have his history and expect nothing to happen. Yea but that was his first incident as a Bronco . Idk I just think if he's potentially your qbotf it was just a dumb move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosfan07 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, thebestever6 said: Yea but that was his first incident as a Bronco . Idk I just think if he's potentially your qbotf it was just a dumb move. First incident but it's a pattern and that's the concerning part and why the Broncos cut ties with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 59 minutes ago, broncosfan07 said: First incident but it's a pattern and that's the concerning part and why the Broncos cut ties with him. Saw rumors that he got into it with Von at the party. Who knows though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, thebestever6 said: What did Chad Kelly do to be released. I've read the details but if you truly think the guy could of been your future potential qbotf. I really think one night of synthetic weed should be overlooked. Couldn't we of gotten him help? 1 hour ago, broncosfan07 said: It's not just one night though. He's repeatedly gotten himself into trouble at every level he's played at. There's a multitude of reasons he dropped in the draft including his ACL tear but you cannot have his history and expect nothing to happen. 3 minutes ago, champ11 said: Saw rumors that he got into it with Von at the party. Who knows though. Let's be clear, though - as much as I defended Chad on Wed, when the news first broke, we needed to hear the details. The details are BAD: 1. He got into a fight with a guest. At a party that was teammates & friends only. That's really not a good look, be a team guy. 2. He then got into it with security - a MAJOR no-no, for a guy who threatened to take an AK-47 to a bar & security in his college days. 3. Security tried to cool him off - but he broke their "company", and then....went to the neighbour's area...and broke into a house that was locked. No violence...but that's not a "oops, drunk, wrong apartment". That's a pattern of anger management, entitlement, and frankly, a COMPLETE no-no for a guy supposedly on his last chance. It speaks to a guy who just has literally NOT received the memo. And remember, we'd have to trust him to be the face of the org. When it was "bad synthetic weed" or "drunk, came home, wrong house"....I could see it. Not the above details. They're not just bad...they're awful. It hurts because he's the only guy on our squad with any 2019+ potential to be our QB - but I can't fault Elway for the decision, it's a total no-brainer. And this is coming from the guy who called for waiting until we got all the info on Wednesday. The info we got...damns Chad Kelly completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Helicopter Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 9 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said: I think Kubiak does though....did we not notice how much better the draft was with Kubiak in as a consultant on personnel decisions? Like, really, where would Elway be without Kubiak?? I think there is probably some QB talent in the 2019 draft. I like the OSU QB...if Herbert comes out college for the draft, I am all-in....and that is totally an Elway pick too though...but it seems like unlike Lynch, Herbert doesn't have accuracy issues. Maybe, but I'm still stuck on how Kubiak thought he could coach up Siemian to be our franchise QB. I give him props for getting the most out of his players as a coach, but geez, the ceiling was so low it just wasted valuable time...it wasted an amazing Defense. I still don't think anyone in the franchise can pick a QB...there could be a lineup with 5 HOF'ers and a scrub, guarantee they pick the scrub. It's like they enjoy the most challenging prospect and pursue it on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Helicopter Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 6 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said: There is no science to picking a QB...if there was...there would be 32 teams who had pro bowl caliber QBs. I mean, how many #1 overalls have busted? That's why you play the odds...draft them often and in various rounds. I like the NE approach. They got Brady in the 6th, they totally understand how this works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-mac Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 17 hours ago, champ11 said: Saw rumors that he got into it with Von at the party. Who knows though. Yeah I’ve seen rumors that Von (party organiser) had to get the security to boot Kelly out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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