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Game Day Thread: week 5 Broncos at Jets


thebestever6

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35 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

My mind goes back to that VJ presser the day after Elway decided to keep him. Essentially what VJ gave us was that every single thing he did in 2017 was wrong, but that he was going to learn from it. Think about how insane that is. This is what they were trying to sell to the public. There were no bright spots for VJ to reflect on, nothing fans could actually hang their hat on. Just, it has to be better because it can't be any worse. 

Retroactively blown away by that. 

I think elway just wanted to let them run their course. He wants a good head coach to want to come here. That won't happen with letting a coach go after a year. And i also think elway kinda wants another high draft pick. 2 years of great drafting will do us wonders going forward.

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50 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

My mind goes back to that VJ presser the day after Elway decided to keep him. Essentially what VJ gave us was that every single thing he did in 2017 was wrong, but that he was going to learn from it. Think about how insane that is. This is what they were trying to sell to the public. There were no bright spots for VJ to reflect on, nothing fans could actually hang their hat on. Just, it has to be better because it can't be any worse. 

Retroactively blown away by that. 

I still can't believe this article 

 

https://milehighsports.com/vance-joseph-does-not-know-exactly-where-to-improve-but-knows-where-to-start/ 

 

Quote

“Obviously, you get better with time — time on the job,” Joseph told DenverBroncos.com. “What I did better, I’m not sure, but I think everyone’s focused. I’m focused on getting it right. So what I did better, I’m not sure, but it was a good offseason. We’ll see in the fall if I got better. It all comes down to wins and losses.”

 

Like bro....you can't even BS what you think you improved on??? It's wild 

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1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

Everything about this season just feels like wasted time. And it feels like the only benefit to staying the course was fighting back against the notion that Elway is a coach-killer. Draft looks good, but passed on a QB in a GREAT QB draft. Wasted money that could have been rolled over into the future on role player vets who have done absolutely nothing. I think with Keenum they were just taking a total shot in the dark, just hoping he could save them from themselves since they seem to have neither the confidence to draft a QB nor the ability to develop them when they get there. Our best players who are actually still playing at an elite level are now a year older. What was accomplished outside of extending the core issues of this franchise a year into the future? And missing out on a potentially generational QB class in the process.

EDIT: In fairness, this draft class does look good but the opportunity cost can't be ignored. Imagine how bad this thing would look if they had another 2017 draft with projects who can't get on the field. 

It's hard to be that emotionally invested in this team. The last three years have been absolute PUNTS. 

Lindsay and Sutton are legitimately the first two exciting things to happen to this organization since the SB. 

We could have Josh Rosen right now and all the mistakes Elway has made would be in the past, but now we are in the same brutal spot we were at 3 years ago. 

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44 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Everything about this season just feels like wasted time. And it feels like the only benefit to staying the course was fighting back against the notion that Elway is a coach-killer. Draft looks good, but passed on a QB in a GREAT QB draft. Wasted money that could have been rolled over into the future on role player vets who have done absolutely nothing. I think with Keenum they were just taking a total shot in the dark, just hoping he could save them from themselves since they seem to have neither the confidence to draft a QB nor the ability to develop them when they get there. Our best players who are actually still playing at an elite level are now a year older. What was accomplished outside of extending the core issues of this franchise a year into the future? And missing out on a potentially generational QB class in the process.

EDIT: In fairness, this draft class does look good but the opportunity cost can't be ignored. Imagine how bad this thing would look if they had another 2017 draft with projects who can't get on the field. 

I have to admit this post is bang on.  I admit to the errors of my thinking heading into the season but I am a mere fan and yeah there is a lot that Elway has to own up to.  As I've mentioned previously I live right across the Detroit river and grew up rooting for all the Detroit teams.  Due to the fact that Detroit had such pathetic teams all of my friends had an adopted American city we all rooted for.  Mine was Philadelphia, with my beloved broad street bullies, loved the sixers and the phillies.  (Ironically I got into football later and fell in love with the Bronco's though I have a eagle tattooed on my chest becasue I am so pro-American I really don't like the Philly eagles at all).  

Anyway my point is I loved Bobby Clarke obviously but I grew to hate him when I saw him ruin my Flyers because he was basically jealous of the money players started to get paid and he cheaped out letting key players go.  Due to Clarke I have reservation about players heading into management and witnessed what that pitiful Matt Millen did to the Lions.  

Again I am trying to say that I would really hate to come to hate Elway because if I saw Bobby Clarke or Matt Millen I really would punch them in the face and not give a heck about being punched out by them - it would be worth it.   

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3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

I'd only keep Sanders from that group. And only re-sign Paradis and Shelby Harris from the list of free agents. 

Thats kinda funny. I looked at Spotrac yesterday for our 2019 FA's and had about the same take. The only difference was with our TE's. Not quite sure what to do there but with Butt kinda iffy next year letting the other two go may be a bad idea.

Not sure about Sanders either. Just look at Harris and Paradis as real necessary.

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2 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

The lady and I were driving back from our friends' house in FoCo after the game yesterday and I had The Fan on and, what I couldn't understand, is why people are so surprised. Did such a large portion of this fanbase really buy the training camp hype? 

I was bigger skeptic of signing Case than most but did so many people believe he is the type of QB who can win games with the supporting cast we have? 

Did people think that all of a sudden Vance and Joe Woods were going "get it," after what we saw last year?

Were we really not going to miss a HOF CB who can lock down the other team's X WR? Or think that Brock, two untested rookies and the criminally inconsistent Bradley Roby were going to fill his shoes?

Was it expected that, a year older, that Marshall and Davis weren't going to be the marginal starters they've both been at ILB the last few years? 

After leading the NCAA and NFL in penalties the last two years, Bolles was suddenly going to stop? 

No one should be surprised by what we've seen through five games. Are we as bad as we were yesterday? No, I don't think so. But we're a long way from even being a fringe playoff team. 

I predicted a .500ish season and I think I was being overly optimistic. 

This is exactly how I viewed it. I said VJ was in the dreaded "lame duck" zone. You knew he wasn't going to suddenly get it together. He's just not a good coach. Then failing to address QB was icing on the cake. We all knew who Keenum was. He's been the same guys his entire career aside from a streaky run there that was proven flash in the pan by time the Vikings season was over.

 

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1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I still can't believe this article 

 

https://milehighsports.com/vance-joseph-does-not-know-exactly-where-to-improve-but-knows-where-to-start/ 

 

 

Like bro....you can't even BS what you think you improved on??? It's wild 

Joseph was the same in pre-season - in a presser he was asked how he had improved and what he had done to make the team better - he couldn't answer (because he hadn't a clue what he was doing).

Joseph has been a lame duck since before the draft - it was noted during the draft that Elway was high-fiveing everyone over the good job done, except Joseph who was sitting off to one side on his own.

I think the players know that he is heading out the door and they have no motivation to play for him.

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20 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Joseph was the same in pre-season - in a presser he was asked how he had improved and what he had done to make the team better - he couldn't answer (because he hadn't a clue what he was doing).

Joseph has been a lame duck since before the draft - it was noted during the draft that Elway was high-fiveing everyone over the good job done, except Joseph who was sitting off to one side on his own.

I think the players know that he is heading out the door and they have no motivation to play for him.

We've also got lots of starters/major contributors heading out the door in March. We absolutely can't afford them and they know that. So, are they more worried about personal health down the road or winning ball games for a team you won't be a part of.

Human nature would dictate the former.

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6 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

I'd only keep Sanders from that group. And only re-sign Paradis and Shelby Harris from the list of free agents. 

I think those are the easy calls.  The harder ones are Stewart at 3.8M - because I think FS's are quite valuable, and at the very least, get trade value (look at what Earl Thomas was getting, obv he's the best, but that's a big diff - true FS guys are way more valuable, SS guys are a dime a dozen - which is why the SS market was so bad for the FA's, and team-friendly).   We wouldn't get much from a comp pick at his age, so I'd look to at least sniff the trade market.   Even a 4th-5th would be feasible...as long as Stewart keeps his play up.  If he doesn't, well, easy cut. 

Sanders is an easy keep, because he has a unique skill set that's not matched by anyone in that he can be the slot guy, and win outside.   Hamilton likely profiles as as a slot guy, while Sutton profiles as the classic X receiver.   The versatility Sanders offers is a no-brainer.

The one option we should consider is if DT is willing to take a significant pay cut.  Like 4-5M off that 12M salary.  Then it's not nearly as bad value - but there's no way he should stay at 12M salary savings.   Now, he might be too proud to do that, and it would be difficult to blame him, but otherwise we then thank him for his service (and say what you will, he's still showing up and putting in the effort now, just like he always has).  

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3 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

I think elway just wanted to let them run their course. He wants a good head coach to want to come here. That won't happen with letting a coach go after a year. And i also think elway kinda wants another high draft pick. 2 years of great drafting will do us wonders going forward.

We'd have that with a QBOTF drafted at 1.5, and we'd also be 36M richer.   A young franchise QB in his rookie deal would do even more wonders.

I get you want to see the positive, but with our cap expenditures, we're not a good team.  We're aging with our best players, who outside of Von/Harris on D, and Paradis/Sanders on O, are likely to only regress...while still being expensive.  If we were cheap, and had tons of cap room, at least we could say we're getting value for our middle-of-road (or MUCH worse) roster.   

 Leary, DT, Marshall, Davis (which really sucks, since we didn't need to re-up him, we had a choice there, but it was "hey we can win now" - when we had zero hope), Wolfe, Roby, Veldheer - all guys we should shed salary and start over for each position.   Keenum in 2 years for sure.   At least in DT's case and for 1 of Marshall / Davis, we have a guy in the wings ready.   We fortunately only need to extend 2 guys who seem totally necessary (Harris & Paradis).  But it's time to stop saying we're a good team talent-wise.   We're not.   There are maybe 5-6 teams who can say they have worse talent than us - and very few who can say they have worse values for the talent/age on our team (and imagine if we didn't hit on the 2018 draft, OMG that would be apocalyptic right now).   

We haven't been a good team for 2 years minimum - only a totally blind homer DEN fan would think that when faced with what we've seen now.  It's not 1 bad week, it's actually been 4 out of 5 bad weeks - we just were lucky enough to face 2 teams even worse than we were (yes, that's possible lol), and eke out mirage W's (especially OAK week 2, week 1 was more on Keenum).  We're all better than that.   Better to admit it, move on, and look for the future.  And man, that statement first & foremost belongs to Elway.  Let's hope he woke up this morning and smelled the coffee.

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Saw an interesting stat today. Keenum's career passer rating on play action: 108

Career passer rating on everything else: 78

So far Denver has only used play action on roughly 16% of its drop backs, good for bottom 5 in the league. 

Not that I'm making excuses, but part of being a good coach is learning to recognize your players' strengths and weaknesses and designing your playbook accordingly. Which again goes back to the root of the problem. Inept coaching

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44 minutes ago, 1234567 said:

Saw an interesting stat today. Keenum's career passer rating on play action: 108

Career passer rating on everything else: 78

So far Denver has only used play action on roughly 16% of its drop backs, good for bottom 5 in the league. 

Not that I'm making excuses, but part of being a good coach is learning to recognize your players' strengths and weaknesses and designing your playbook accordingly. Which again goes back to the root of the problem. Inept coaching

And if you can find that on the internet, why can't a coaching staff that are all making six- and seven-figure salaries not know it? 

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50 minutes ago, 1234567 said:

Saw an interesting stat today. Keenum's career passer rating on play action: 108

Career passer rating on everything else: 78

So far Denver has only used play action on roughly 16% of its drop backs, good for bottom 5 in the league. 

Not that I'm making excuses, but part of being a good coach is learning to recognize your players' strengths and weaknesses and designing your playbook accordingly. Which again goes back to the root of the problem. Inept coaching

Again, to touch on Keenum's career #'s - he had almost 40 percent of his career attempts last year in MIN.   His rating in PA last year on 241 attempts is almost 120.   At 241 pass attempts, it's pretty easy to see 2017 over-represents his career #'s.    And again, many of those throws are playing ahead or even, with D's respecting the run game that MIN had behind a more complete OL.  With one of the best WR-TE corps around...facing the 2nd worst pass D's QB's had to face last year.    

Let's stop with spinning how the DEN play calling is responsible for Case's struggles.  He's late making reads, and he's shown zero anticipation and ball placement.   He just has been...brutal.   We could certainly run more, we could certainly then use PA more...but it doesn't change that Keenum has been just brutal.   

If we want a better indication - only Josh Allen has been a worse QB than Keenum this year, for QB's with 100+ pass attempts.   Ugh. 

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