Official We Need Help at WR Thread

[Chocolateman78]

1 hour ago, ragevsuall17 said:

I get that... and there's definitely merit to it.  But we're not talking about just fringe roster players here.  The guys we're talking about are starters... but if that were a concern, then I could see us maybe go after someone who's played under LaFleur before.  But seriously, if Gordon can go from being on the Browns in 9/18 to contributing on the Pats on 9/30, then getting his snap count over 80% 10/14... we could count on whoever we bring in getting serious snaps by Thanksgiving, helping us down the stretch as we're likely fighting for a playoff spot.  So let's not let that stop us. 

I've mentioned Sanu before... and that's just a stab in the dark obviously, as there's been no rumors on that front.  If the Falcons were to fall to 2-5 today, they may sell him.  Ridley's emergence and Sanu's cap #s may make him expendable there.  He has previous experience in Shannahan's system and with LaFleur as a QB coach. 

Garcon could also be a nice option.  He still has 1 more "cheap" salary year before the increases kick in.  The Titans would then be able to rework or cut him after 2019.  There's the obvious Shannahan connection (some analyst, led by Orlovsky I think, had mentioned that LaFleur's system is more similar to Shanny's than McVay's).

I think if we make a move, it has be done this week... allow the new receiver a couple of weeks before their first game, and a few more weeks before the stretch run. 

You can't use the guy who went to play with Tom Brady as an example. Josh Gordan went to play with the greatest QB of all time, in an offense Brady knows inside and out, with one of the games best play callers in McDaniels and arguably the GOAT HC. It is INCREDIBLY unreasonable to think that we can replicate anything close to that with a QB with a fraction of Brady's talent, who has a fraction of Brady's mastery of offense, and a OC with only seven games of experience as a true OC. 

That situation is an obvious exception to a rule.

 

[Chocolateman78]

3 hours ago, 615finest said:

Draft picks are hit or miss just like FA signings. In my opinion our WR core needs a veteran presence, somebody who could show little tricks on how to beat the press and stuff like that. A coach can only show so much but an actual player that’s out there going against the same ppl could teach and show a lot.. Nun of our WRs have been in the league longer then 3 years

 

Hell bring in Ocho Cinco to be an assistant coach. Didn’t he say last year he wanted to help? 

With all due respect... that is nonsense. Thats LITERALLY the job description of a coach. The job of a veteren WR is to produce, not to teach the young players. Veteren leadership is a thing, but its also a cliche that fans love to run with more often than its relevant. 

In fact our current WR coach has 13 years of NFL expereicnce as a PLAYER. if he can't teach those things, then we need a new coach, not a veteren presence. 

[615finest]

34 minutes ago, Chocolateman78 said:

With all due respect... that is nonsense. Thats LITERALLY the job description of a coach. The job of a veteren WR is to produce, not to teach the young players. Veteren leadership is a thing, but its also a cliche that fans love to run with more often than its relevant. 

In fact our current WR coach has 13 years of NFL expereicnce as a PLAYER. if he can't teach those things, then we need a new coach, not a veteren presence. 

It’s really not nonsense at all..A veteran WR can teach and produce. A coach can only do so much since he’s not on the field. 

A veteran presence does more then you think in the film room and showing different tricks to better there game. 

[Chocolateman78]

Just now, 615finest said:

It’s really not nonsense at all..A veteran WR can teach and produce. A coach can only do so much since he’s not on the field. 

A veteran presence does more then you think in the film room and showing different tricks to better there game. 

That makes zero sense. Again our current WR coach was an NFL WR for over a decade. So what does the coach not know that a veteran WR does? Our coach was a veteran WR.

You don't learn how to play WR on game day. You learn on the practice field, and the coach most definitely is right there. If you need someone to correct mistakes on the field mid game, then that represents a failure of the entire offensive coaching staff. 

Showing the different techniques of the trade... that's the WR coaches job. Learning the nuance of watching film... that's a WR coaches job. Hell the WR coach usually leads the film session.

A veteran helps in little nuanced ways. Like for example a veteran might have experience playing against a specific defensive back so he can impart which specific techniques he uses to win against that player. A veteran might show a young guy tips to keep their body in shape all season, how to recover after games, or how to get their nutrition right, when to lift on off days vs when to rest things like that.

But if a WR is struggling to beat a jam. Its not the job of a veteran to teach the young guy, its the coach's. If a guy can't recognize coverage and runs the wrong route on option routes, thats not on a veteran, that's on the coach. If a guy is running routes at the wrong depths or not running his route to the sticks... that's on the coach to work on, not a veteran. 

[ragevsuall17]

1 hour ago, Chocolateman78 said:

You can't use the guy who went to play with Tom Brady as an example. Josh Gordan went to play with the greatest QB of all time, in an offense Brady knows inside and out, with one of the games best play callers in McDaniels and arguably the GOAT HC. It is INCREDIBLY unreasonable to think that we can replicate anything close to that with a QB with a fraction of Brady's talent, who has a fraction of Brady's mastery of offense, and a OC with only seven games of experience as a true OC. 

That situation is an obvious exception to a rule.

 

So let's just stand pat?  There could be receivers that can help... whether its a vet like Tate or DT... who we should be able to trust to pick up the offense quickly... or guys like Garcon who have played in systems similar to what LaFleur is running, and who should pick things up quicker.

There's obviously issues... we've shuffled PS receivers expecting positive results... and that's not happening. 

Many of us were concerned with the depth chart in case an injury happened... and well, we're down 2 of our best recieving options... and we've done nothing to try to fix this... other than PS guys.  And maybe some of these guys weren't available the first month of the season... but as we approach the halfway point, some of these teams know they're out, and can start selling usable players.  It's time. 

There's no obvious QB upgrade available... not OC upgrade available... but there may be a WR upgrade available.  Even if it costs a 3rd (less for some of these other options)... why not give it a go?  Because a 3rd rounder has a 50/50 chance of being a starter?  We already know that any of these guys are not busts... and it's fair that we'll get at the very least 3rd round value from them, right? (assuming we're talking 3rd round value here). 

We still have a shot at the playoffs here... and I still have hope that Mariota  can be the type of QB that can lead this team even when the odds are stacked against us.  The defense is a good unit, and definitely a unit we can win with.  So why not take the gamble?  Why are hesitating?

It's time to break a few eggs trying to get this omelette going...

[ragevsuall17]

32 minutes ago, 615finest said:

It’s really not nonsense at all..A veteran WR can teach and produce. A coach can only do so much since he’s not on the field. 

A veteran presence does more then you think in the film room and showing different tricks to better there game. 

To me, a veteran is important... but more so on the field than helping others.  He's been through stuff, he's learned on the job.  He'll know when to get out of bounds vs when to get those few extra yards.  He'll know when to cut his route short and go back to help the QB when things have broken down.  He knows what refs for are looking on pick plays... when you can push off a defender and how to do it to get that extra few inches of separation.  Along with everything else, we lost that when we lost Walker and Matthews.

Let's not forget most the receiving group is on their 2nd season of playing professionally (CD, Taylor, Sharpe, Jennings, Jonnu, Batson, Firkster... Stocker is the lone veteran of the group).

[Chocolateman78]

13 minutes ago, ragevsuall17 said:

To me, a veteran is important... but more so on the field than helping others.  He's been through stuff, he's learned on the job.  He'll know when to get out of bounds vs when to get those few extra yards.  He'll know when to cut his route short and go back to help the QB when things have broken down.  He knows what refs for are looking on pick plays... when you can push off a defender and how to do it to get that extra few inches of separation.  Along with everything else, we lost that when we lost Walker and Matthews.

Let's not forget most the receiving group is on their 2nd season of playing professionally (CD, Taylor, Sharpe, Jennings, Jonnu, Batson, Firkster... Stocker is the lone veteran of the group).

Now this I agree with. You want a veteran who already has those traits and can bring those traits to your team... But you don't sign or trade for a veteran expecting him to teach other WR's how to do it. Thats the WR coach's job.

[KingTitan]

27 minutes ago, Chocolateman78 said:

You can't use the guy who went to play with Tom Brady as an example. Josh Gordan went to play with the greatest QB of all time, in an offense Brady knows inside and out, with one of the games best play callers in McDaniels and arguably the GOAT HC. It is INCREDIBLY unreasonable to think that we can replicate anything close to that with a QB with a fraction of Brady's talent, who has a fraction of Brady's mastery of offense, and a OC with only seven games of experience as a true OC. 

That situation is an obvious exception to a rule.

 

Maybe not trading a 3rd round pick for an unproven guy like Parker, but if we have the chance to get Cooper or say Thomas at a reasonable rate, we should most definitely trade a pick. I'm not of the mindset of thinking a guy can come in here this year and explode for 7 consecutive 100 yard games and get targeted 10 times a game, catching 8 passes. Right now, we need that guy to make the 2 or so catches that have killed our team this year.  We need him to make the catch Nick Williams and Taylor can't seem to make. If we have someone to catch the ball or win an 1-on-1 more consistently we are looking at maybe 2 more wins. 

I get your point about holding onto picks. But. I think a calculated risk on a proven player or player with NFL experience is better than Joe Backup at OG.

[Chocolateman78]

23 minutes ago, ragevsuall17 said:

So let's just stand pat?  There could be receivers that can help... whether its a vet like Tate or DT... who we should be able to trust to pick up the offense quickly... or guys like Garcon who have played in systems similar to what LaFleur is running, and who should pick things up quicker.

There's obviously issues... we've shuffled PS receivers expecting positive results... and that's not happening. 

Many of us were concerned with the depth chart in case an injury happened... and well, we're down 2 of our best recieving options... and we've done nothing to try to fix this... other than PS guys.  And maybe some of these guys weren't available the first month of the season... but as we approach the halfway point, some of these teams know they're out, and can start selling usable players.  It's time. 

There's no obvious QB upgrade available... not OC upgrade available... but there may be a WR upgrade available.  Even if it costs a 3rd (less for some of these other options)... why not give it a go?  Because a 3rd rounder has a 50/50 chance of being a starter?  We already know that any of these guys are not busts... and it's fair that we'll get at the very least 3rd round value from them, right? (assuming we're talking 3rd round value here). 

We still have a shot at the playoffs here... and I still have hope that Mariota  can be the type of QB that can lead this team even when the odds are stacked against us.  The defense is a good unit, and definitely a unit we can win with.  So why not take the gamble?  Why are hesitating?

It's time to break a few eggs trying to get this omelette going...

I just think its a desperation move and its a move that might not bear actual fruit. Yea a 3rd round pick is worth it if it can spark our offense, but what is the realistic likely hood of that. You mention the 50/50 chance of a 3rd rounder being a player. What are the chances of a midseason aquisition at WR actually providing an impact? I think I can provide you FAR more examples of 3rd round picks making immediate impacts than you can show me mid season trade acquisitions that spark an offense. 

And again... the All Pro talent that went to play with the greatest QB of all time and one of the greatest offensive minds in the leaguem in a system that the QB has been running for over a decade shouldn't count as precedent. 

The situation sucks, but the time to address this was the offseason. We knew then that every WR in the WR room, save Mathews, was young. The fact that J Rob didn't bring in any veterans save Nick Williams and Michael Campanero is an indictment on Robinson. Its his fault, but I still think this is about long game. This team isn't a veteren WR away from being one of the class teams in the AFC.

When I look at this roster I see to many holes that will need to be addressed next offseason. IMO Landry is the only viable starter at OLB going forward. IMO Morgan is close to done and Orakpo has already crossed the finish line. Korrea needs to prove he can be effective with starter snaps. I think we need to replace 2, if not all 3, interior oline spots. TE will need an upgrade given Delanie's age, injury, and Jonnu's struggles. Butler's struggles could make CB a bigger need than expected. Depending on how Derrick Henry plays out, I could see them looking for another young RB. Then ulitmately, should they find themselves in position, they might go All in and trade the farm to find Marcus's successor.

Long story short, I think this team has quite a few holes and depth issues. I don't think a vet WR, at this point, will save much considering the other parts of the offense that are struggling as well. We need those draft picks to replenish this roster. Its very rare that a team can rectify poor offseason decisions mid season and thats what this is. Its not much different from the Jags QB situation. There's no feasible way to make change.

[Chocolateman78]

20 minutes ago, KingTitan said:

Maybe not trading a 3rd round pick for an unproven guy like Parker, but if we have the chance to get Cooper or say Thomas at a reasonable rate, we should most definitely trade a pick. I'm not of the mindset of thinking a guy can come in here this year and explode for 7 consecutive 100 yard games and get targeted 10 times a game, catching 8 passes. Right now, we need that guy to make the 2 or so catches that have killed our team this year.  We need him to make the catch Nick Williams and Taylor can't seem to make. If we have someone to catch the ball or win an 1-on-1 more consistently we are looking at maybe 2 more wins. 

I get your point about holding onto picks. But. I think a calculated risk on a proven player or player with NFL experience is better than Joe Backup at OG.

Show me precedent of mid season WR acquisitions working? One that's not the All Pro talent who went to play with the GOAT QB.  And again, we act like WR play is the ONLY issue holding our offense back. Thats not true. A WR wont save this offense this season. Be mad that the GM didn't make the right decision in April and May, but making another bad move in October out of desperation doesn't sound like a great idea.

[KingTitan]

Just now, Chocolateman78 said:

Show me precedent of mid season WR acquisitions working? One that's not the All Pro talent who went to play with the GOAT QB.  And again, we act like WR play is the ONLY issue holding our offense back. Thats not true. A WR wont save this offense this season. Be mad that the GM didn't make the right decision in April and May, but making another bad move in October out of desperation doesn't sound like a great idea.

Again, I'm not advocating for some all-pro move.  If we could get say a Golden Tate for a 5th or even Adam Humphries in Tampa for a 7th, I'd be fine with that. WR isn't the only thing causing losses, but we have evidence of WR issues directly costing us at least 1 win in Buffalo. And who knows what a WR who catches would have done with the Taylor drop, with all the room he had to run. 

We are saying if there is help out there to be had and a reasonable price, why not? To hold on to the hope that next year's 4th round OT or LB is going to turn the team around. 
There is a chance that a WR could help us win a few more games this year, why not? A WR that can make a few 3rd down conversions can transform the offense completely, with the way we've played. 

[ragevsuall17]

25 minutes ago, KingTitan said:

Again, I'm not advocating for some all-pro move.  If we could get say a Golden Tate for a 5th or even Adam Humphries in Tampa for a 7th, I'd be fine with that. WR isn't the only thing causing losses, but we have evidence of WR issues directly costing us at least 1 win in Buffalo. And who knows what a WR who catches would have done with the Taylor drop, with all the room he had to run. 

We are saying if there is help out there to be had and a reasonable price, why not? To hold on to the hope that next year's 4th round OT or LB is going to turn the team around. 
There is a chance that a WR could help us win a few more games this year, why not? A WR that can make a few 3rd down conversions can transform the offense completely, with the way we've played. 

I hope JRob's been scouting the available players... trying to find the right fit for this team mid season. 

Because the right fit gives Mariota another option... the right fit puts Sharpe against lesser competition and opens things up for him a bit more... the right fit gives Taylor more chances to just do what he can do right now, instead of us trying to rely on him to do things he obviously can't... the right fit allows CD to not have all the pressure on him... the right fit maybe starts backing defenses up a bit, giving the run game a couple more inches resulting in a couple more yards per gain...

The right fit does a lot of this team right now... and by right now, I mean December (and January potentially)... gives our receiving unit a boost and head start going into next year. 

[Chocolateman78]

Because I think you guys DRASTICALLY underestimate the time needed to acclimate to a new team, new offense, new QB, new play caller.

I get that this seems like the perfect time with the bye week matching up with the trade deadline, but lets think about this.

Due to CBA rules, player get 4 consecutive days off on a bye week, so even if we traded for a guy today, he's not practicing or working with the team till Friday at the earliest. So you have a few days to get him acclimated before its time to begin the install of the Dallas gameplan. And there's not time to teach the offense and the gameplan. And what confidence do you even have in Lafluer at this point to accliumate a new WR? I mean he's struggling to get his QB into rythym with the WR's he's been working with since May, but we think now that the same guy can get a new player to make an impact in a few weeks? That to me is an improbable expectation. I'd rather Lefluer and the offensive staff focus on figuring out a way to get the running game to work. That will do MUCH more to improve this offense than  adding a brand new player.

Also just because you bring in a WR doesn't mean Marcus will improve. The trust and chemistry that comes with good offenses come from those 1000's of offseason reps. You don't have that time to replicate that mid-season. It doesn't matter if the guy runs the right route and gets open, if Marcus pulls the ball down too fast because he's looking at the rush. It doesn't matter if the WR is in the right place if the timing between him and the QB is off.

Ultimately it sounds like people are hoping to throw anything at the wall in hopes it sticks. I think that's a poor solution. This offense is predicated on timing and precision. Those things take time to perfect. This is why I keep asking people to name precedent. There's a reason why guys typically don't get traded mid season. And its because its hard for a coaching staff to implement them into what they're trying to accomplish in real time. 

[-Hope-]

1 minute ago, Chocolateman78 said:

Also just because you bring in a WR doesn't mean Marcus will improve. The trust and chemistry that comes with good offenses come from those 1000's of offseason reps. You don't have that time to replicate that mid-season. It doesn't matter if the guy runs the right route and gets open, if Marcus pulls the ball down too fast because he's looking at the rush. It doesn't matter if the WR is in the right place if the timing between him and the QB is off.

i mean, sure, we want marcus to improve, but you realize that even at the level marcus is playing right now, WR drops have directly cost us one game (bills), nearly cost us another (eagles), and massively impacted another (chargers)? obviously yes, we want to improve in other areas to potentially cover up that weakness, but that's going to take time and until then it's ridiculous to keep trotting out these guys that are literally costing us games. we're not asking for a superstar, we're not even asking for a legit #2 receiver. we just need guys that can actually catch the ball when it hits them in the hands. 

[Chocolateman78]

1 minute ago, -Hope- said:

i mean, sure, we want marcus to improve, but you realize that even at the level marcus is playing right now, WR drops have directly cost us one game (bills), nearly cost us another (eagles), and massively impacted another (chargers)? obviously yes, we want to improve in other areas to potentially cover up that weakness, but that's going to take time and until then it's ridiculous to keep trotting out these guys that are literally costing us games. we're not asking for a superstar, we're not even asking for a legit #2 receiver. we just need guys that can actually catch the ball when it hits them in the hands. 

You know what also impacted those games. An inability to run the football consistently. An inability to protect the passer, an inability for the QB to progress thru his reads and find open guys. Better play calling to get Marcus in a better rythym. 

People keep looking at this situation in a vaccum. As if the WRs have been the ONLY issue. They are bad, but the time to impact the WR position seriously was May... not October.