Drew Brees - new all time passing yardage leader

[SkippyX]

On 10/15/2018 at 1:10 PM, tyler735 said:

I've seen people say Brees was the weak link of the Chargers while he was there, or that he was just another guy with the Chargers, but his last 2 seasons with the Chargers were certainly showing signs of the HOF QB he has become over the course of his career.

 

For example, in his 2004 and 2005 seasons (his last 2 years with the Chargers), Brees had:

6,735 passing yards (900 pass attempts), 54 touchdowns, 22 interceptions, 65% completion percentage in 2004, and 64% completion percentage in 2005. He also had a QB Rating of 104.8 in 2004, and 89.2 in 2005.

 

Tom Brady in 2004 and 2005 had:

7802 passing yards(1004 pass attempts), 55 touchdowns, 28 interceptions, 60.8% completion percentage in 2004, and 63% completion percentage in 2005. He also had a QB Rating of 92.6 in 2004 and a QB Rating of 92.3 in 2005.

 

Statistically Brees last 2 years in San Diego were pretty comparable to Tom Brady's numbers in that same time span. This isn't a Brees is better than Tom Brady argument, but simply shows that stating Brees was a "weak link" or "JAG" with the Chargers is simply a farce. Brees had a turning point in his career during the 2004 seasons, which happens to be just months after the Chargers spent a high 1st round pick on Phillip Rivers. Rivers spent his first 2 seasons in the NFL riding the bench because Brees was playing at a much higher level than he had in the past. Up until Brees hurt his shoulder at the end of 2005, they had a big decision to make regarding what to do with Brees as he was still just 26 and had just come off a pro bowl season. Obviously once he hurt his throwing shoulder it made their decision easy, and the rest is history from there for Brees with New Orleans.

You don't lump a great season with a mediocre season and say it was 2 great seasons.

• You can do that with Nick Foles in 2013 and 2014 when everyone knows 2014 was a struggle for Foles
  • This doesn't mean Foles is a bad QB, like it doesn't mean Brees is a bad QB for 3 meh seasons in SD

Go ahead and lump in a season where Brees trailed Bulger, Plummer, Green, and Leftwich in passer rating as an example of his greatness!

• The 8th highest passer rating in the 2005 AFC is a huge accomplishment IMHO

 

[SkippyX]

On 10/15/2018 at 12:24 PM, Malik said:

The Brees part is dishonest. In his 4 seasons of actually starting he had 2 bad years, 1 great, and 1 good year to round it out. His 2004 season is better than a half of dozen of the seasons he's had in NO. There were obvious signs he had makings of being a great player. 

Bulger had a better first 5 years with the Rams than Brees did as a Charger.

How's that for honesty? 

Brees had 2004 and Bulger had 2006.

[SkippyX]

On 10/16/2018 at 12:56 PM, FrantikRam said:

 

Super bowls (and games) are won and lost by teams, not players. Giving a QB credit for wins (and losses) is the worst thing we've done when trying to assess QB play IMO.

I didn't say that Rice made Montana - I'm fully aware that he was successful without him. But when talking about these two QBs, that Montana had the most dominant WR in NFL history and possibly the best player ever in NFL history, while Brees did not, is worth taking into account. Either way, Brees is just a better QB than Montana was.

This is the worst of all arguments.

It means that Brees throwing for 500+ yards in a 13 point loss at home should be more relevant than Brady winning games and Super Bowls.

It means that every yard and TD in the 2nd half of 20 point blowouts means more than game winning playoff drives.

Kerry Collins and Vinny Testeverde are great stat accumulators. Lets pretend they were great QBs because who watches football games to see their team win anyway?

You stick to your guns though.

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

You don't lump a great season with a mediocre season and say it was 2 great seasons.

• You can do that with Nick Foles in 2013 and 2014 when everyone knows 2014 was a struggle for Foles
  • This doesn't mean Foles is a bad QB, like it doesn't mean Brees is a bad QB for 3 meh seasons in SD

Go ahead and lump in a season where Brees trailed Bulger, Plummer, Green, and Leftwich in passer rating as an example of his greatness!

• The 8th highest passer rating in the 2005 AFC is a huge accomplishment IMHO

 

Meh Brees's passer rating was still only 3 lower than Brady's in 2005, and Brees's rating was 12 points higher in 2004. My point still stands

[Xenos]

53 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Meh Brees's passer rating was still only 3 lower than Brady's in 2005, and Brees's rating was 12 points higher in 2004. My point still stands

Having actually watched Brees live, he had a great 2004 and a pretty average 2005 season. 2005 only looked good when you compare it to 2002 and especially 2003. I will always remember 2005 however. It was the year that we were the most talented team to not make the playoffs. And one big reason for that was because of Drew's performance.

Sidenote: Brady didn't become the statistical monster until 2007. Up until that point, there was a huge argument about who was better: Peyton or Brady. Brady had the rings but Peyton had the flashy stats.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Brees' 2004 DYAR: 7th/DVOA: 5th

Brees' 2005 DYAR: 8th/DVOA: 9th

According to Pro Football Focus' advanced metrics, he was just as efficient both seasons. I think Brees and Brady are in the same camp, but just sayin, going by traditional passer rating isn't a good indicator of a quaterback's efficiency. 

[Jlowe22]

I'm Manning's fourth starting season, he threw 26 TDs and 23 picks.  Not exactly lighting the world on fire.

 

[Bobikus]

3 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Kerry Collins and Vinny Testeverde are great stat accumulators. Lets pretend they were great QBs because who watches football games to see their team win anyway?

Comparing Brees to Collins is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread.

[Xenos]

Even though it sounds like I'm down on Brees, I'm actually happy for him. He's where he belongs in NO. What I don't like is hearing people who don't know anything tell us that we should have kept Brees. As if we could have known given his inconsistent play and serious injury. It was a miracle that he completely recovered. Well, of course, it does help that the guy has an incredible work ethic.

Anyways memory lane for those interested:

https://www.si.com/vault/2001/04/30/8095409/hang-time-with-his-future-up-in-the-air-purdues-drew-brees-like-many-top-prospects-lived-in-a-maddening-limbo-from-new-years-to-draft-day-working-out-for-nfl-teams-watching-his-draft-status-rise-and-fall-never-knowing-which-pro

Quote

MARCH 21, WEST LAFAYETTE

By 10:45 a.m. representatives of seven NFL teams are at one end
of the Mollenkopf Center's 100-yard indoor practice field. Almost
the entire brain trust of the Kansas City Chiefs is here:
president Carl Peterson, coach **** Vermeil, offensive
coordinator Al Saunders and quarterbacks coach Terry Shea. This
stands to reason, because the Chiefs have lost Elvis Grbac to
free agency and haven't succeeded in trading for Trent Green. San
Diego, which has the first pick in the draft, is represented by
coach Mike Riley and offensive coordinator Norv Turner. Garrett
and offensive coordinator Ken Anderson are in from Cincinnati.
The Bills, the Cowboys, the Atlanta Falcons and the Carolina
Panthers are also here. Peterson walks over to IMG's Ken Kremer
and says, "Well, we all wish he were a couple inches taller, but
what can you do?"

At 11:06 Kennan says, "We'll start now. Drew is going to make 75
or 80 throws, and I think you'll all see everything you need to
see." The tension is palpable: A player's future is on the line.

Brees will throw the same pattern twice, once to Jones and once
to Purdue senior Keith Dawson, and then jog to the other end of
the field and throw the same pattern in the opposite direction.
He begins with short outs and slants and progresses to modest
fades and skinny posts. Every throw is on target, and Brees runs
quickly from end to end. Eleven minutes into the workout, Kennan
calls for Jones to run a 17-yard comeback to the left sideline.
Brees takes a seven-step drop as Jones runs 20 yards, turns and
peels back toward the line of scrimmage while veering toward the
sideline. The ball must be released before Jones turns, and it
must travel nearly 40 yards in the air. It's a long, tough pass
that requires timing and arm strength--a litmus-test throw. Brees
uncoils a spiral so tight and hard that you can hear the football
hum in the dead air. It hits Jones in the hands at nose level, a
perfect pass. Somebody whistles softly in approval.

For the next 20 minutes, Brees is in an ungodly zone. He throws a
total of 74 balls, and only two hit the ground by his doing.
(Dawson drops several others.) He finishes by launching two
70-yard bombs, hitting the receivers in stride. "He threw the s---
out of it, in case you couldn't tell," Kennan says. "It was about
the best individual workout I've ever seen."

NFL reps would sooner cut off their thumbs than tip their hands,
but they don't disguise their response today. "Now I know why he
threw for nine million yards in college," says Turner.

"Very impressive," says Garrett. "He's a solid guy. I think of
him as like a baseball player who's going to play 10 years and
never hit under .290. Just very, very efficient."

Vermeil and his Kansas City cohorts have been on a quarterback
tour, visiting Josh Booty at LSU, Josh Heupel at Oklahoma and
Sage Rosenfels at Iowa State before Brees. "Ideally, Drew would
be a little bigger," says Vermeil, "but in terms of development
and skills, he's well ahead of everybody else we've seen. Well
ahead."

Long after the brass leave, Brees flops onto a weight bench and
gives a zillion-watt smile. "That was me out there," he says.
"Throwing on rhythm, moving back and forth. I feel like 1,000
pounds got lifted off my shoulders." Whatever damage was done at
the combine has been undone here. Brees is back in the mix.

 

[Bobikus]

5 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Even though it sounds like I'm down on Brees, I'm actually happy for him. He's where he belongs in NO. What I don't like is hearing people who don't know anybody tell us that we should have kept Brees. As if we could have known given his inconsistent play and serious injury. It was a miracle that he completely recovered. Well, of course, it does help that the guy has an incredible work ethic.

Anyways memory lane for those interested:

https://www.si.com/vault/2001/04/30/8095409/hang-time-with-his-future-up-in-the-air-purdues-drew-brees-like-many-top-prospects-lived-in-a-maddening-limbo-from-new-years-to-draft-day-working-out-for-nfl-teams-watching-his-draft-status-rise-and-fall-never-knowing-which-pro

 

Marty and Cam Cam weren't really a good offensive coaching fit for Brees either.  Payton adapted that offense to Brees' strengths.

[Heinz D.]

I'm not about to wade through this whole thread, but I thought I'd chime in and say that it still makes me sick to my stomach that the Bears FO at the time didn't sign Brees as a free agent because of concerns about his shoulder. I'm off to get some Rolaids, y'all can carry on. 

[Jlowe22]

32 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Even though it sounds like I'm down on Brees, I'm actually happy for him. He's where he belongs in NO. What I don't like is hearing people who don't know anybody tell us that we should have kept Brees. As if we could have known given his inconsistent play and serious injury. It was a miracle that he completely recovered. Well, of course, it does help that the guy has an incredible work ethic.

Anyways memory lane for those interested:

https://www.si.com/vault/2001/04/30/8095409/hang-time-with-his-future-up-in-the-air-purdues-drew-brees-like-many-top-prospects-lived-in-a-maddening-limbo-from-new-years-to-draft-day-working-out-for-nfl-teams-watching-his-draft-status-rise-and-fall-never-knowing-which-pro

 

I don't blame San Diego, and I don't think many people do.  They made the only decision they really could.  Rivers has been great there and could have won a superbowl with a little more luck.

[FrantikRam]

19 hours ago, SkippyX said:

This is the worst of all arguments.

It means that Brees throwing for 500+ yards in a 13 point loss at home should be more relevant than Brady winning games and Super Bowls.

It means that every yard and TD in the 2nd half of 20 point blowouts means more than game winning playoff drives.

Kerry Collins and Vinny Testeverde are great stat accumulators. Lets pretend they were great QBs because who watches football games to see their team win anyway?

You stick to your guns though.

 

Where did I say anything about throwing for yards or even TDs has anything to do with it? Just watch Montana and then watch Brees - he's a better QB.

But for a second let's pretend that we did just go on straight up passer rating to determine that Brees was better. That's still better than going off of wins and losses. There are 11 players on the field. Put Tom Brady (who I do think is the GOAT) on the field with 10 of us against a college football team and Brady (and we) would get WRECKED. People are going to have their own criteria and we could all tear each others' apart. If I say passer rating is more important, you'd say that the rule changes made it easier for Brees. If you say we should go by Ws/Ls, I'd say that Montana played before the free agency era, had an all time great coach and the best WR in NFL history - you'd say Montana could put up these numbers if he played today. I'd say Brees would have easily won all the games Montana did and more. We could go back and forth forever. It's hard to compare across eras.

 

I DO think Brady is the best QB of all time NOW. But I didn't until the Patriots beat the Falcons. Super Bowls and winning matters to me, but only when QBs are close to each other. For me, Brees is far enough above Montana (so is Peyton Manning for that matter) where the winning doesn't matter. But Brady is right there with them so the Super Bowls put him over the top. But when Brady was younger, he was winning games as an "above average" QB - but not a superstar. From 2001-2004, there was never a doubt to me that Manning was better than Brady. Brady was just in a far more favorable situation with the coach and personnel around him - even that is up for debate though, because some would say that Brady never had a Marvin Harrison during this time. But he didn't need that to win - he needed a great coach and great defense.