#WeFiredBruceAllen!!!

[turtle28]

Belicheck has Tom Brady to run his offense while Belicheck only has to focus on the defensive side of the ball, and that should never be forgotten.

John Kent Cooke would've been a better owner bc he would have kept Casserly or hired his own ”Football Guy” to build the roster and let that guy hire the next HC after Norv eventually got fired after the 2000 or 01 season. Also, if John was given the team, Trent Green would’ve been re-signed and we would have been similar to the 2000 Chiefs. If we re-sign Trent Green, then we would have never traded 3 draft picks for Brad Johnson in 99, including the 11th overall pick in 99.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/117931896/nfl-trades-first-round-draft-picks-90s-brad-johnson-rob-johnson

Feb. 16, 1999 -- Vikings trade Brad Johnson to Redskins for 1999 1st (11th overall), 1999 3rd (73rd overall), 2000 2nd

Johnson was a respectable starting quarterback in 1999, available on the market only really because Randall Cunningham had taken over for him due to injury and led the Vikings to their best season in franchise history. But Washington bargained a lot for a 31-year-old with two seasons as a starter under his belt and who had thrown five interceptions in his four appearances in '98.

They traded three good draft picks, including the 11th overall pick in '99, and then showed why it's often better to bet on someone young than to gamble on a journeyman who had just lost his job.

The Vikings used that first pick on Daunte Culpepper, then traded away the third round pick (which was used on All-Pro linebacker Joey Porter), to move up in the second round and select Jim Kleinsasser, who spent 13 seasons in Minnesota. Johnson actually did make the Pro Bowl with Washington in '99, but fell apart in 2000 before being let go so he could win a fortunate Super Bowl with Tampa Bay in 2002.

April 8, 1996 -- Rams trade Sean Gilbert to Redskins for 1996 1st round pick (6th)
Feb. 26, 1998 -- Bengals trade Dan Wilkinson to Redskins for 1998 1st (17th overall), 1998 3rd (78th overall)

Did you ever notice that Washington is obsessed with defensive tackles? For some reason in the mid-90s they really pushed hard at this position, opting for mostly-underwhelming vets instead of young blood.

There's a reason people don't do this anymore.

Gilbert was the third overall pick by the Rams in 1992 and Wilkinson went first overall in 1994, but draft pedigree is meaningless if on-field results didn't match the hype. They were both okay players, but it's unfathomable that anyone would give up a first for either, let alone sixth overall or throwing in a third rounder. Also odd in '98 considering they had just signed reigning Defensive Player of the Year Dana Stubblefield, a defensive tackle.

Gilbert was there for one season (the Rams drafted running back Lawrence Phillips, a bust) and Wilkinson for three (the Bengals drafted Brian Simmons with the pick and he played there for nine seasons) and the Redskins finished 28th against the run in 1998.

Vinny Cerrato would've never been hired.

If we were still lucky enough to hire Schotenhimer then, he wouldn't have been fired after he finished the season 5-3 after starting it 0-5 in 01. John also wouldn't have hired Spurier or Zorn. 

And, if Gibbs still came back to coach for him, after Gibbs retired the second time, Gregg Williams or Al Saunders would’ve been our HC in 08, and NOT Zorn.

Edited February 5, 2019 by turtle28

[naptownskinsfan]

Belichick is just as involved offensively as he is defensively.  Every year, he meets with various coaches in college football to see what innovations they have going on, and he tailors his playbook accordingly.  This just isn't a guy who has a defensive background and lets the guys on offense do the work.  The offensive playbook is Belichick's, that he has put together throughout the years, adding and subtracting when necessary.  He continues to be on the cutting edge of innovation, and nothing that is old or falls out of favor gets used.  

Also, you have no idea if John Kent Cooke would have hired a football guy better than Casserly or the Schottenheimer/John Schneider duo.  He might not have hired Steve Spurrier or Jim Zorn, but he could've hired the Chan Gailey's or Hue Jackson's of the world.  There is nothing in his background to indicate he would do better or worse than Snyder, and it's a moot point to argue it.  

[turtle28]

23 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Belichick is just as involved offensively as he is defensively.  Every year, he meets with various coaches in college football to see what innovations they have going on, and he tailors his playbook accordingly.  This just isn't a guy who has a defensive background and lets the guys on offense do the work.  The offensive playbook is Belichick's, that he has put together throughout the years, adding and subtracting when necessary.  He continues to be on the cutting edge of innovation, and nothing that is old or falls out of favor gets used.  

Also, you have no idea if John Kent Cooke would have hired a football guy better than Casserly or the Schottenheimer/John Schneider duo.  He might not have hired Steve Spurrier or Jim Zorn, but he could've hired the Chan Gailey's or Hue Jackson's of the world.  There is nothing in his background to indicate he would do better or worse than Snyder, and it's a moot point to argue it.  

Umm yeah, but Belicheck has Tom Brady, we don't. That was my main point.

And I am 99.9% sure that John Kent Cooke would have kept Casserly, would have kept Trent Green and last decade would've been a better decade on the field for the Redskins. The Cooke’s were business owners, they hired Football Guys to run the team, just like they hired good business minds in their other businesses to make them money in them, think Ted Leonis of today.

Casserly and Schottenhimer were fired too soon, Cooke would have kept them longer. And, if Casserly was shown the door when Norv was eventually fired and Schottenhimer was hired, Schottenhimer would have hired John Schneider just like he did in 01.

I would actually say that in the mid 90s John Kent Cooke was running the business operations of the Redskins and he allowed Casserly to do his job and then Casserly built that team into the 99 team which was a bad snap from possibly going to the 99 NFCCG.

Don't forget, Schottenhimer was in total control of football operations in 01, just like Shanahan was in 2010.

From what I remember in 2009 when it was rumored we were going to hire Shanahan was that Shanahan wanted Bruce Allen to be hired to handle the contracts and salary cap while Shanahan handled all football operations. At least that's the way it was reported back in 09. Shanahan wanted Allen, not the other way around.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2001/may/31/20010531-023434-9718r/

The Washington Redskins hired John Schneider as the team's vice president of player personnel yesterday but left power firmly in the hands of coach Marty Schottenheimer. 

Schneider will oversee the scouting system, but Schottenheimer will continue to negotiate contracts. Schneider left a similar position with the Seattle Seahawks, signing a three-year deal worth $1.05 million with the Redskins. 

The hiring was first reported by The Washington Times on Wednesday.

The scouting staff is expected to undergo a major reshuffling for the second straight year. Former personnel director Vinny Cerrato dismissed many longtime scouts in 2000 during his first season with the team. Schottenheimer fired Cerrato in January. Schottenheimer said Schneider is free to assemble his own staff, but some of the current four scouts might remain. 

"When you hire somebody to do the job, you let them do the job," Schottenheimer said. "I'll have some input on who we choose. Ultimately, the decision has to be [Schneider's]."

Edited February 5, 2019 by turtle28

[naptownskinsfan]

Yes Brady has Belichick.  But it's a team effort.  The Ravens won Super Bowls with Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco.  Belichick went 11-5 with a 7th round QB in the only year he didn't make the playoffs, and went 3-1 when Brady was suspended.  Not to take anything away from Brady, but you don't really have one without the other here.  

Again, all of the John Kent Cooke stuff is irrelevant and taking the thread off-topic.  He didn't own the team, and to suppose he would've made any of those moves isn't worth discussing.  Even the personnel guy he puts in charge may not make those same moves.  

Yes, I remember Schottenheimer had full control.  Snyder wanted Cerrato back, Schottenheimer balked at it and so he and John Schneider were shown the door.  Snyder has a thing for keeping around executives who have won Super Bowls, such as Cerrato and Bruce Allen.  And yes, the Shanahan/Allen connection was reported as such then, and continues to be supported now.  Allen was a "non-negotiable" for Shanahan, as he wanted final control/cut of the roster, but needed someone to oversee the front office and the salary cap.  Why would Snyder fight the addition of Bruce Allen anyway, he's Redskins royalty.  The cracks started in 2012 with the trade up for RGIII, which is something that Shanahan didn't want but somewhere between 2010 and then. he lost some of the control he had, which indicates to me that he only had final roster decisions, and not full control.  

[turtle28]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4801852

ASHBURN, Va. -- At the podium stood Mike Shanahan, who has a $35 million, five-year contract that gives him final authority over football decisions as head coach and executive vice president of the Washington Redskins.

Seated at a nearby table was Bruce Allen, the first general manager Dan Snyder has hired in 11 years of owning the team.

"Dan Snyder has directed us to please get this team back to the levels where it's been in the past," Allen said. "And I believe he's going to be our most supportive fan."

Shanahan made his formal debut Wednesday, one day after signing his contract and just two days after Jim Zorn was fired following a 4-12 season. The winner of two Super Bowls in the 1990s with the Denver Broncos spoke mainly in generalities with polish and confidence, far from the nervous and ragged performance given by rookie coach Zorn 23 months ago.

"I've got very high standards, just like everybody in this organization," Shanahan said. "I can't tell you how long it's going to take. But I can guarantee you: We'll get better every day and hopefully it won't take long to get back to where this organization has been."

Therefore, in less than a month, the Redskins have gone from an organization that revolved primarily around Snyder and his yes-man to one that includes two established decision-makers firmly in charge.

"I wanted a guy that knows that like I know football. Bruce is that guy. So we will work together. Do I have the final say? Maybe you could say that," Shanahan said with a shrug. "But you know what? I would never use that. ... One of the reasons I was so excited about Bruce is I know Bruce will not agree with me on a lot of things, and that's what I'm looking for."

So, anyone who thinks that Shanahan didn't have ”Final Say” while he was here, doesn't know that they're talking about.

Shanahan on Bruce Allen,

"I wanted a guy that knows that like I know football. Bruce is that guy. So we will work together. Do I have the final say? Maybe you could say that," Shanahan said with a shrug.

Lmao at Shanahan! Lol 😆 

[turtle28]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4801852

Quote

ASHBURN, Va. -- At the podium stood Mike Shanahan, who has a $35 million, five-year contract that gives him final authority over football decisions as head coach and executive vice president of the Washington Redskins.

Seated at a nearby table was Bruce Allen, the first general manager Dan Snyder has hired in 11 years of owning the team.

"Dan Snyder has directed us to please get this team back to the levels where it's been in the past," Allen said. "And I believe he's going to be our most supportive fan."

Shanahan made his formal debut Wednesday, one day after signing his contract and just two days after Jim Zorn was fired following a 4-12 season. The winner of two Super Bowls in the 1990s with the Denver Broncos spoke mainly in generalities with polish and confidence, far from the nervous and ragged performance given by rookie coach Zorn 23 months ago.

"I've got very high standards, just like everybody in this organization," Shanahan said. "I can't tell you how long it's going to take. But I can guarantee you: We'll get better every day and hopefully it won't take long to get back to where this organization has been."

Therefore, in less than a month, the Redskins have gone from an organization that revolved primarily around Snyder and his yes-man to one that includes two established decision-makers firmly in charge.

"I wanted a guy that knows that like I know football. Bruce is that guy. So we will work together. Do I have the final say? Maybe you could say that," Shanahan said with a shrug. "But you know what? I would never use that. ... One of the reasons I was so excited about Bruce is I know Bruce will not agree with me on a lot of things, and that's what I'm looking for."

 

So, anyone who thinks that Shanahan didn't have ”Final Say” while he was here, doesn't know that they're talking about.

Shanahan on Bruce Allen,

 

 

"I wanted a guy that knows that like I know football. Bruce is that guy. So we will work together. Do I have the final say? Maybe you could say that," Shanahan said with a shrug.

 

Lmao at Shanahan! Lol 😆 

[naptownskinsfan]

Which is where I said somewhere along the line, he must've lost that full control, because if you listen or read his interviews about the RGIII trade, he was not in favor of it and didn't make it, and that it was a call that ownership made- https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/washington-redskins-robert-griffin-iii-rg3-mike-shanahan-trade-crazy-draft-dan-snyder-052116 

That doesn't sound like a guy who has full control at that point.  

[turtle28]

6 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Which is where I said somewhere along the line, he must've lost that full control, because if you listen or read his interviews about the RGIII trade, he was not in favor of it and didn't make it, and that it was a call that ownership made- https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/washington-redskins-robert-griffin-iii-rg3-mike-shanahan-trade-crazy-draft-dan-snyder-052116 

That doesn't sound like a guy who has full control at that point.  

Newsflash, Shanahan is a liar. I don't know if Shanahan worked out the deal that traded up to get RG3 or worked out the deal to trade 2 draft picks for McNabb and two for Jammal Brown in 2010, but he didn't stop them from making those moves either and he had that control under his contract.

So, it’s either one of two things:

1. He’s a liar

2. He didn’t care that much and he went along anyways bc he was getting paid handsomely.

Edited February 5, 2019 by turtle28

[naptownskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Newsflash, Shanahan is a liar. I don't know if Shanahan worked out the deal that traded up to get RG3 or worked out tthe deal to trade for McNabb or Jamaal Brown in 2010, but he didn't stop them either and he had that control under his contract.

So, it’s either one of two things:

1. He’s a liar

2. He didn’t care that much and he went along anyways bc he was getting paid handsomely.

Here's a breakdown of Kyle Shanahan and what he looks for in a QB in his system- http://www.knbr.com/2017/04/29/how-scars-from-the-rgiii-situation-led-shanahan-to-draft-c-j-beathard/

You can not convince me, even if you have a lack of trust in Mike Shanahan, that both father and son would make a trade for RGIII and put him in Kyle's offense knowing all of that information and knowing he wouldn't be a fit.  And remember, there was RGIII going to ownership and demanding that the offense be changed so that he was in the pocket more, despite the offense being tailored specifically for him coming out of college.  

That trade was forced on Shanahan and everyone knows it.  It was all about name, flash and selling tickets and merchandise.  

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Here's a breakdown of Kyle Shanahan and what he looks for in a QB in his system- http://www.knbr.com/2017/04/29/how-scars-from-the-rgiii-situation-led-shanahan-to-draft-c-j-beathard/

You can not convince me, even if you have a lack of trust in Mike Shanahan, that both father and son would make a trade for RGIII and put him in Kyle's offense knowing all of that information and knowing he wouldn't be a fit.  And remember, there was RGIII going to ownership and demanding that the offense be changed so that he was in the pocket more, despite the offense being tailored specifically for him coming out of college.  

That trade was forced on Shanahan and everyone knows it.  It was all about name, flash and selling tickets and merchandise.  

He wasn’t forced and if he was, he could’ve quit and got paid for breach of contract, if he truly didn’t end up having final say on that trade or the McNabb and Brown trades.

Shanahan made statements that he was excited to get RG3 in 2012. There’s pictures and videos of Mike Shanahan and Dan Snyder laughing it up and loving RG3 at the combine and Shanahan seemed thrilled to get RG3 on draft day, unless again he was lying - which he may have been - and if he was, he deserved the academy award for best actor in 2012 for his performance every day since they drafted RG3 until RG3 got hurt after Shanahan ran him into the ground as a rookie to save his job. 

I believe that RG3 fit into the Shanahan bootleg off of zone read offense. If RG3 hadn’t gotten hurt, had been given more time to develop, was more coachable after his rookie year and didn’t let his ego get in the way of his development as a pocket passer in the NFL, I think it would’ve worked out better for him long term in DC. 

Griffin was good running the bootleg off of the zbs run action - the staple of the Shanahan passing offense - he did it as a rookie and in his second year after he got over the mental aspect of his knee injury. He had some fantastic passing games those first two years, he just neeed more time to develop in Shanahan’s offense but bc those two didn’t get along after RG3 hurt his knee, it wasn’t meant to be. The trust was gone.

Snyder chose to hedge his bets on the 24-year-old QB who appeared to have a bright future in front of him instead of the 60-year-old HC who only had one winning season in 4 years as a Redskins HC and that was the season when that young rookie QB delivered Shanahan’s only winning season in Dc to Shanahan.

Edited February 5, 2019 by turtle28

[Thaiphoon]

11 hours ago, turtle28 said:

So you're telling me that if Vince Lombardi,  Joe Gibbs, Chuck Knoll, Bill Parcells or Bill Belicheck was coaching this current team - with all their injuries and their starting QB/team leader breaking his leg in two mid season - that they'd have the team playing at a lot higher level with the same talent?

Yes. We'd be two or three wins better. Know why? Because we don't lose the two earlier games to the Colts and Texans. And we don't lose to the Cowboys. That's even with the wheels falling off with the injuries. 

Quote

 

If we had a hall of fame coach with average talent - see 04-07 & 2010-2013 - then at best we would've had a 9-7 team but with no better than avg QB bc ours broke his leg in two, that HC W/ the talent we had from the last two years would be one and done in the playoffs.

I don't think if a hall of fame coach was coaching this team the first 9 games that we would've had more than one more win than the 6 wins we had that time.

 

Three big differences between Gibbs and the current guy we have now:

1) Team discipline

2) Holding players accountable

3) In game adjustments 

#1 and #2 go a long way to preventing the litany of excuses you listed that are only on the players (missed blocks, etc...) but are actually things the coaches should either be correcting or removing players from the lineup.

#3 goes to winning close games that you probably shouldn't.

[PARROTHEAD]

What sucks most to see.  Saints #BoycottBowl saw 60k people hit the streets over an issue totally meaningless. Redskin fans start #FireBruceAllen and think theyve done something by seeing it "trending".

Must be nice to have hope and passion...

[Ghostnote]

1 hour ago, PARROTHEAD said:

What sucks most to see.  Saints #BoycottBowl saw 60k people hit the streets over an issue totally meaningless. Redskin fans start #FireBruceAllen and think theyve done something by seeing it "trending".

Must be nice to have hope and passion...

Because...WE ARE THAT TEAM. 

[Woz]

18 hours ago, turtle28 said:

So you're telling me that if Vince Lombardi,  Joe Gibbs, Chuck Knoll, Bill Parcells or Bill Belicheck was coaching this current team - with all their injuries and their starting QB/team leader breaking his leg in two mid season - that they'd have the team playing at a lot higher level with the same talent?

Why not? Those coaches prepared their teams. Even the second stringers. Yes, once Washington was stuck with QBs they picked up off the street who didn't have that muscle memory beat into them during camp and pre-season, then they were screwed.

But before then? Why weren't the backups like Geron Christian able to know the snap count? Why wasn't that repeated until they were blue in the face?

18 hours ago, turtle28 said:

If we had a hall of fame coach with average talent - see 04-07 & 2010-2013 - then at best we would've had a 9-7 team but with no better than avg QB bc ours broke his leg in two, that HC W/ the talent we had from the last two years would be one and done in the playoffs.

You just said that the coach alone would have improved the team by two wins and made the playoffs (*). That isn't an indictment in your mind of the coaching staff?

 

 

(*) Not likely, as they would still have had Mark Sanchez and Josh Johnson for the final four games (technically, five since McCoy broke his leg in the first Philly game). I could see a better coach getting a win versus Houston and Dallas, but Philadelphia would still have the tiebreaker over Washington (they won both against us).

EDIT: @Thaiphoon had a good point that the Colts game probably switches from a loss to a win with a better coaching staff.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Woz
Acknowledge Thai's point about the Colts game

[turtle28]

One game! Whoopty Doo!

Championship with Gibbs 2.0 with the rosters we’ve had for the last 25 years right?

lol sure...