Is it too early to focus on the 19 draft?

[Thaiphoon]

1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

That's fine to say that, but if you want Rosen and the Pats are going to give up #32 to get Rosen, then you'd have to give up your 1st to get him in order to beat the Pats offer.

Again...morons. I'll keep my 1st. Let the Pats spend their 1st on a QB that will then waste his entire rookie contract on the bench.

They will literally get zero value from that 1st round pick.

[ripsean21]

40 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Again...morons. I'll keep my 1st. Let the Pats spend their 1st on a QB that will then waste his entire rookie contract on the bench.

They will literally get zero value from that 1st round pick.

And one lost year of control at a top ten picks Salerno compared to the 32 pick salary

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Again...morons. I'll keep my 1st. Let the Pats spend their 1st on a QB that will then waste his entire rookie contract on the bench.

They will literally get zero value from that 1st round pick.

I'm not so sure Brady plays 4 more years. Also, we shouldn't pass on the chance to get Rosen, he’d go top 5 in this draft. He's a better prospect than Haskins, Lock and Jones and he's a better pocket passer and knows/knew NFL offenses better then Murray coming out.

Giving up #15 for a guy who at worst will be our starting QB in 2020 and may even beat out Keenum this year and be our QB this year hopefully until he retires is a heck of a deal.

Edited March 20, 2019 by turtle28

[ripsean21]

1 hour ago, Bo Duke said:

Seems like the Murray and Arizona match is heating up again with the head coach and GM going to Oklahoma to meet with him today.

I don't really know at this point if we land Rosen or not, wouldn't mind it if the value isn't a first rounder unless we moved back to the first pick in the second round.

But with teams like the Giants, Dolphins, and maybe the Bengals would be in play also I cant see how our first pick isn't a qb. I believe the QB floor would be Drew Lock for us at 15.

Call me crazy but I think the Giants are up to something when they traded Beckham. Might be some backdoor maneuvering to land Rosen with their second round pick which is higher than ours.

I hear things like the Chargers and Pat's as being landing spots for Rosen but I just don't see it. Belichick doesn't seem to use draft capital that way and the Chargers are only a player or two from being Super bowl contenders now.

So to get to the point I'm trying to make here is I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Dwayne Haskins is looking at us right in the face at 15. Especially if Miami is tanking for 2020

If he’s there I’d be okay with taking him!!! He grades out well. Awesome arm and vision. He’s big and tough too have seen him handle his after hits

[Thaiphoon]

52 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I'm not so sure Brady plays 4 more years. Also, we shouldn't pass on the chance to get Rosen, he’d go top 5 in this draft. He's a better prospect than Haskins, Lock and Jones and he's a better pocket passer and knows/knew NFL offenses better then Murray coming out.

Giving up #15 for a guy who at worst will be our QB next year and may even beat out Keenum this year and be our QB this year hopefully until he retires is a heck of a deal.

Doesn't matter where he would go in THIS draft. The fact remains that he went LAST year. And the Cards are trying to sell a used car. And you're apparently okay with paying retail, new car, sticker for a one year old car

[turtle28]

54 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Doesn't matter where he would go in THIS draft. The fact remains that he went LAST year. And the Cards are trying to sell a used car. And you're apparently okay with paying retail, new car, sticker for a one year old car

Yes because he’s a starting QB in the NFL and we arguably don’t have a quality starting one on our roster right now and definitely don’t have one next year under contract.

Why would I take a lesser QB at 15 like Haskins, Lock or Jones when I could get a better one like Rosen?

Just by some made up fictional notion that his value isn’t worth a 1st round pick a year after he went 10th overall or he isn’t worth a first round pick because Arizona & Cliff Kingsburry - who’s a losing college coach - want Kyler Murray more?

The value of a starting QB is worth a first round pick, Rosen has the potential to be a starter in this league for 15 years and has a better chance at that then the #2-4 rated QBs in this class.

Edited March 20, 2019 by turtle28

[naptownskinsfan]

3 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Doesn't matter where he would go in THIS draft. The fact remains that he went LAST year. And the Cards are trying to sell a used car. And you're apparently okay with paying retail, new car, sticker for a one year old car

Cards also dont have the leverage in this deal.  Kingsbury already opened his mouth, and the cats out of the bag so to speak; he ruined their leverage for a deal.  A third round pick likely gets the deal done, and I'd be OK moving that to a second if we get into a bidding war.  

[offbyone]

If you graded Rosen as a 1st round pick last year then essentially you think he is a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  In that case, trading for him is probably worth a 1st round pick unless you saw something egregious with the cardinals last year.

[turtle28]

7 hours ago, offbyone said:

If you graded Rosen as a 1st round pick last year then essentially you think he is a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  In that case, trading for him is probably worth a 1st round pick unless you saw something egregious with the cardinals last year.

Boom! Thank you! If you liked the guy last year and would've spent a first last year on him and other teams are willing to give up their first this year, then hello! That's his market! If you want Rosen, it might mean you have go give up your 1st for him and it makes sense bc he's a first round QB. 

Put it this way, I'm sure the Bears & Cowboys don't regret sending first round picks to the Raiders last year after they got an All-Pro defensive player and a pro bowl caliber WR who totally changed the Cowboys season around after the trade in Amari Cooper. 

Man! I wish we had done one of those trades!

Preston Smith, a mid round pick and a 1st round pick for Mack last year, I’d do it in a heartbeat! I said it then, and I reiterate it, 7 months later! Mack was worth the trade and the contract!

I didn't agree with the Cowboys sending a 1st round pick to the raiders for Cooper bc of how inconsistent Cooper was in 2017 in Oakland, but he proved his worth to the Cowboys after that trade also.

Edited March 20, 2019 by turtle28

[turtle28]

Giants met with Dwayne Haskins Tuesday night

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/20/giants-met-with-dwayne-haskins-tuesday-night/ via @ProFootballTalk

[naptownskinsfan]

7 hours ago, offbyone said:

If you graded Rosen as a 1st round pick last year then essentially you think he is a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  In that case, trading for him is probably worth a 1st round pick unless you saw something egregious with the cardinals last year.

It's asset management.  Just like the point I was trying to make about Landon Collins.  You can set the market in his price range, but we went into #1 CB territory with the contract.  We blew the evaluation.  Giving up a first rounder isn't worth what the current cost of Rosen is, especially knowing the Cardinals have essentially committed to someone else and have to trade him.  They have zero leverage to ask for a first round pick.  None.  So why would we offer it. 

Actually, we have one reason why we would offer that pick to the Cardinals:

 

[e16bball]

I don’t think I would take Rosen over Haskins, for what it’s worth. Before he was absolutely god awful as a rookie, maybe. The tools do impress. But he doesn’t just get a total free pass for being one of the worst starting QBs in NFL history. Not in my book anyway. Especially now that he’s also burned one of his cheap rookie seasons.

 

Moreover, I’ll say the same thing I said about Rosen last year: he’s a loser. I get the appeal, he has a great arm and he’s really smart. He makes lot of throws that make your jaw drop. And yet, his career record at UCLA was 16-13. In Pac-10 play, he went 9-10. Pac 10! We ain’t talkin bout the SEC, or the B1G, or even the Big 12 where you have mostly dangerous opponents every week. We talkin bout Pac 10.

And I get it, “wins are a team stat, they mean nothing for a QB, blah blah blah.” Everyone knows that isn’t entirely true. Or even mostly true, for that matter. How many franchise QBs in the NFL finished below .500 in conference play in their college careers? Well...

Among definite franchise QBs, Tom Brady (13-3), Aaron Rodgers (12-4), Peyton Manning (26-6), Drew Brees (16-6), Ben Roethlisberger (19-5), Russell Wilson (17-14), Philip Rivers (17-15), Eli Manning (14-10), Andrew Luck (22-5), Matt Ryan (14-6), Cam Newton (8-0), Carson Wentz (♾-0).

Among guys who you might consider franchise QBs, Baker Mayfield (27-5), Matthew Stafford (16-8), Deshaun Watson (17-2), Kirk Cousins (17-6), Marcus Mariota (23-4), Jameis Winston (16-0), Andy Dalton (27-5), Dak Prescott (12-10), Mitchell Trubisky (5-3). Among his draft cohorts, Sam Darnold (16-3) and Josh Allen (11-3). 

In Rosen’s defense, Mahomes (8-14) and Goff (7-20) were below .500 in their conference play. So that leaves a little hope open. But Mahomes is the Great Aberration and Goff took a team that was 1-11 in his freshman year and had them in a bowl by his junior year. Rosen took over a team that was 10-3 the year before he arrived (ranked in the final AP top 10) and had them limping to 6-7 and firing their head coach by his junior year.

He comes to the NFL, goes 3-10 as a rookie (1-10 against anybody who wasn’t the similarly pathetic Niners), puts up the 5th worst season in the Total QBR era, sees his offensive coordinator fired, then sees his head coach fired (again). And now his team apparently wants to draft a different QB with the #1 overall pick he helped earn and is looking to dump him less than a year after they traded up to get him.

 

That’s what we know about Josh Rosen’s success thus far on the football field. Maybe he rises, like a phoenix (pun intended), from the ashes he’s left behind in Arizona and LA. But the idea of giving up an extremely valuable 1st round pick to find out if he’s really a coach-killing bum or just the unluckiest guy there ever was — it’s crazy to me. I’d be uncomfortable giving up the 2nd rounder for him without getting something else back along with him, let alone the 1st. I don’t know what Haskins is, and that’s scary to wager the future of the franchise on — but what’s much more scary is that I think I do know what Rosen is.

** I should say, I don’t know Josh Rosen, I don’t care about UCLA or the Cardinals or anyone related to either of those teams. I actually agree with most of the political/social positions he espouses, so that’s not an issue, I’d probably like the kid as a person. I just don’t think I want to bet big on him becoming the cornerstone of my football franchise. Which is true of 99.999997% of human beings, so it’s not really a giant knock on the guy.

 

 

[Thaiphoon]

10 hours ago, offbyone said:

If you graded Rosen as a 1st round pick last year then essentially you think he is a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  In that case, trading for him is probably worth a 1st round pick unless you saw something egregious with the cardinals last year.

Except that the logic fails in that when you're grading picks, you're doing so not knowing how they will play. At that point last season, there was zero NFL tape on him.

And then he had a bad season.

Now, there are many reasons why the season was bad. But the fact is, his tape is not, say, an Andrew Luck type of rookie season.

So youve got;

1) Former 1st round pick

2) Had a poor rookie season (regardless of the reasons why)

3) Whose team now wants to move on from him one year later in order to get another QB

You dont pay top dollar for that.

[Thaiphoon]

33 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I don’t think I would take Rosen over Haskins, for what it’s worth. Before he was absolutely god awful as a rookie, maybe. The tools do impress. But he doesn’t just get a total free pass for being one of the worst starting QBs in NFL history. Not in my book anyway. Especially now that he’s also burned one of his cheap rookie seasons.

 

Moreover, I’ll say the same thing I said about Rosen last year: he’s a loser. I get the appeal, he has a great arm and he’s really smart. He makes lot of throws that make your jaw drop. And yet, his career record at UCLA was 16-13. In Pac-10 play, he went 9-10. Pac 10! We ain’t talkin bout the SEC, or the B1G, or even the Big 12 where you have mostly dangerous opponents every week. We talkin bout Pac 10.

And I get it, “wins are a team stat, they mean nothing for a QB, blah blah blah.” Everyone knows that isn’t entirely true. Or even mostly true, for that matter. How many franchise QBs in the NFL finished below .500 in conference play in their college careers? Well...

Among definite franchise QBs, Tom Brady (13-3), Aaron Rodgers (12-4), Peyton Manning (26-6), Drew Brees (16-6), Ben Roethlisberger (19-5), Russell Wilson (17-14), Philip Rivers (17-15), Eli Manning (14-10), Andrew Luck (22-5), Matt Ryan (14-6), Cam Newton (8-0), Carson Wentz (♾-0).

Among guys who you might consider franchise QBs, Baker Mayfield (27-5), Matthew Stafford (16-8), Deshaun Watson (17-2), Kirk Cousins (17-6), Marcus Mariota (23-4), Jameis Winston (16-0), Andy Dalton (27-5), Dak Prescott (12-10), Mitchell Trubisky (5-3). Among his draft cohorts, Sam Darnold (16-3) and Josh Allen (11-3). 

In Rosen’s defense, Mahomes (8-14) and Goff (7-20) were below .500 in their conference play. So that leaves a little hope open. But Mahomes is the Great Aberration and Goff took a team that was 1-11 in his freshman year and had them in a bowl by his junior year. Rosen took over a team that was 10-3 the year before he arrived (ranked in the final AP top 10) and had them limping to 6-7 and firing their head coach by his junior year.

He comes to the NFL, goes 3-10 as a rookie (1-10 against anybody who wasn’t the similarly pathetic Niners), puts up the 5th worst season in the Total QBR era, sees his offensive coordinator fired, then sees his head coach fired (again). And now his team apparently wants to draft a different QB with the #1 overall pick he helped earn and is looking to dump him less than a year after they traded up to get him.

 

That’s what we know about Josh Rosen’s success thus far on the football field. Maybe he rises, like a phoenix (pun intended), from the ashes he’s left behind in Arizona and LA. But the idea of giving up an extremely valuable 1st round pick to find out if he’s really a coach-killing bum or just the unluckiest guy there ever was — it’s crazy to me. I’d be uncomfortable giving up the 2nd rounder for him without getting something else back along with him, let alone the 1st. I don’t know what Haskins is, and that’s scary to wager the future of the franchise on — but what’s much more scary is that I think I do know what Rosen is.

** I should say, I don’t know Josh Rosen, I don’t care about UCLA or the Cardinals or anyone related to either of those teams. I actually agree with most of the political/social positions he espouses, so that’s not an issue, I’d probably like the kid as a person. I just don’t think I want to bet big on him becoming the cornerstone of my football franchise. Which is true of 99.999997% of human beings, so it’s not really a giant knock on the guy.

 

 

Thank you @e16bball. Well said (*)

 

(*) except the bit about wins as a team stat. We just disagree

[Thaiphoon]

13 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Yes because he’s a starting QB in the NFL and we arguably don’t have a quality starting one on our roster right now and definitely don’t have one next year under contract.

Why would I take a lesser QB at 15 like Haskins, Lock or Jones when I could get a better one like Rosen?

Just by some made up fictional notion that his value isn’t worth a 1st round pick a year after he went 10th overall or he isn’t worth a first round pick because Arizona & Cliff Kingsburry - who’s a losing college coach - want Kyler Murray more?

The value of a starting QB is worth a first round pick, Rosen has the potential to be a starter in this league for 15 years and has a better chance at that then the #2-4 rated QBs in this class.

He started and performed poorly (regardless of reason).

You dont pay top dollar for that.

And if you do, stop by my house. I've been meaning to clean out my garage and want to make some $$