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BroncoBruin

Looking Ahead - Keep/Cut

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1 minute ago, jsthomp2007 said:

I am with you...I don't mind Keenum being around.  I know he is expensive, but why not let Chad simply understudy Keenum to not only learn from him mistakes, but also the good qualities.  

Is it worth $18million ?

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8 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Is it worth $18million ?

For one season??? Sure. 

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I keep seeing people talking about how Cravens makes some of our secondary expendable. How? The guy hasn't played a down in nearly two years and doesn't seem to love the game. I'd honestly be surprised to see him suit up at all for the Broncos. 

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The problem with rebuilding is that with such incompetent play calling from the coaching staff, it's really hard to evaluate your players. Do our DB's really suck, or are they being put in an impossible position by having to play 10 yards off the ball with no safety help? Is our pass-rush really under performing or are they being rendered ineffective by having such soft coverage that the QB gets handed an automatic 8 yard completion every play? Was Keenum really just a flash in the pan last year (likely), or did Minnesota's OC figure out that he, like Jake Plummer was, is lethal on rollouts and play action, and thus designed the offense accordingly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing our player's poor performance outright.. But a lot of the guys who are struggling so mightily (especially on defense) played like studs under SOB. Miller, Harris, Roby, Wolfe, Marshall. These guys were beasts as recently as 2-3 years ago. And they're not exactly old right now. So what changed? To me, it's pretty obvious.

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8 minutes ago, 1234567 said:

The problem with rebuilding is that with such incompetent play calling from the coaching staff, it's really hard to evaluate your players. Do our DB's really suck, or are they being put in an impossible position by having to play 10 yards off the ball with no safety help? Is our pass-rush really under performing or are they being rendered ineffective by having such soft coverage that the QB gets handed an automatic 8 yard completion every play? Was Keenum really just a flash in the pan last year (likely), or did Minnesota's OC figure out that he, like Jake Plummer was, is lethal on rollouts and play action, and thus designed the offense accordingly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing our player's poor performance outright.. But a lot of the guys who are struggling so mightily (especially on defense) played like studs under SOB. Miller, Harris, Roby, Wolfe, Marshall. These guys were beasts as recently as 2-3 years ago. And they're not exactly old right now. So what changed? To me, it's pretty obvious.

Clearing the players are unhappy with what Joseph and Woods are doing - when you defence has a 'players only' meeting (to discuss “philosophical differences” with the coaches) -  then you know your days as HC are numbered.

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Just now, jolly red giant said:

Clearing the players are unhappy with what Joseph and Woods are doing - when you defence has a 'players only' meeting (to discuss “philosophical differences” with the coaches) -  then you know your days as HC are numbered.

Agreed. That's the caveat to taking over a team that's used to dominating. They recognize when you're full of sh**.

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3 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

Agreed that it would take a pick to unload Keenum's contract - but it's not obvious to me that it's what we should do. 

With one year remaining and a team that is > 1 year away from really competing, it doesn't make sense to give up draft capital to unload a player at a position we can't definitively improve upon without him.

Keenum is likely better than any other bridge QB we could sign in 2019 FA (save Tannehill or Bridgewater) and would still bring value to the team if we brought in a QB w/ a premium pick in the draft. Obviously signing Keenum this summer was a mistake - but fortunately it was a 2yr gamble rather than 3-5. 

Given it would likely take a Day 2 pick to unload an 18M contract that's as bad value-wise as Keenum's present play indicates (saves us 7M in guaranteed $, and 15M overall, obv), I'm not a fan, either.   If it was a Rd5 pick, great, sign me up.  But Day 2 picks are so valuable...well, at least, when Elway isn't in 2013-2017 mode lol.   Worth WAY more than 15M. 

I remember when some posters lol'd at CLE taking on 16M to get a 2nd round pick from HOU and Osweiler.  That 2nd round pick was #36 overall.  That was an AMAZING move - and even moreso when you realize that CLE had to spend the $ to make the min. 90 percent cap floor.  It shows how innovative thinking can really help a franchise.   Sadly, though, we'd be the HOU - and since we aren't good enough to contend, the extra cap $ isn't nearly as valuable as a Day 2 pick...at least, when Elway is using it like he did in 2018.

Edited by Broncofan

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With Von's cap hit, next year is going to probably be a cap strapped year anyways.  Won't hurt my feelings to see Keenum out right cut and Denver eating the dead money in a tight year as is.

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1 hour ago, broncofan48 said:

With Von's cap hit, next year is going to probably be a cap strapped year anyways.  Won't hurt my feelings to see Keenum out right cut and Denver eating the dead money in a tight year as is.

That's the part that really hurts - we'd take a 10M cap hit to save 8M.   Normally, 8M is worth keeping an average caretaker.  Right now, I don't even know that he'd be worth 8M (let alone the 18M we're on the hook for 10M guaranteed).  

I mean, Josh McCown cost 10M/1....Teddy 5M/1.  Even AJ McCarron could just outright suck...and give us the same result.     It's just mind-boggling how ppl called this a good deal...for a journeyman.  I mean, ok, it was better than Bradford's 20M/1 year.   But that's like comparing 2 turds and arguing the smaller one smells great because the other smells worse.  In the end they both stink.

Edited by Broncofan

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I think Elways moves this year were a bit of desperation, hoping to catch lightening in a bottle one last time. Nice try, but didn't appear to work. This year we've got 63 players under contract for $167 million.

We're on the hook for $157 million next year for just 35 players. The party's over. Elways mantra of "win now and next year" just doesn't work in the era of FA.

The Bears will be the next example. They're all in for this year. Next year they go from this years entire roster hit of $166 million to 36 players @ $172 mil in 2019, $150 mil in 2020 for 25 players and $119 mil in 2021 for 18 players. Pretty tough to field a roster. The same thing will happen to the Redskins. In 2020 they're on the hook for $163 mil for 29 players.

Those are just a couple of examples, there are lots more.

Anyway, I'd like the cuts made next year to lower our 2020/2021 salary allocations. That looks to me to be our next good financial window. We're not going anywhere for a while now so Might as well bite the bullet now and next year. There's not really any benefit now for getting rid of Keenum. He's gone after next year anyway. At the very least he'll be a decent backup. 

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10 hours ago, 1234567 said:

The problem with rebuilding is that with such incompetent play calling from the coaching staff, it's really hard to evaluate your players. Do our DB's really suck, or are they being put in an impossible position by having to play 10 yards off the ball with no safety help? Is our pass-rush really under performing or are they being rendered ineffective by having such soft coverage that the QB gets handed an automatic 8 yard completion every play? Was Keenum really just a flash in the pan last year (likely), or did Minnesota's OC figure out that he, like Jake Plummer was, is lethal on rollouts and play action, and thus designed the offense accordingly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing our player's poor performance outright.. But a lot of the guys who are struggling so mightily (especially on defense) played like studs under SOB. Miller, Harris, Roby, Wolfe, Marshall. These guys were beasts as recently as 2-3 years ago. And they're not exactly old right now. So what changed? To me, it's pretty obvious.

The eye test says Harris & Von are still great.   Same for Sanders.   The same eye tests says Marshall's lost a step (lots of injuries), same for DT...and Wolfe's worn down.  Ditto for Leary.  Roby just hasn't been good except for the KC game.  And again, sorry, but there is just zero excuse for Keenum's play.   He's whiffing when he's pressured, when he's not under pressure, and his pocket awareness / anticipation are just plain zero's.

The thing is, the vets' decline is just part of the game - ILB is a meat grinder position, taking away the hammy's really can make a huge diff (Marshall).   Interior OL can be the same way, and we're seeing the effect on Leary (Paradis, fortunately, hasn't broken down).     Wolfe was the Robin to Malik Jackson's Batman in pass rush inside - but we couldn't really know that until Malik left.    Same with Ray (except he was more like Batgirl to Von's Batman and Ware's Robin lol).   Roby has never been asked to be a 2nd CB until now...and let's face it, the results aren't pretty.   Todd Davis was always a limited player, but Elway mind-boggingly ignored that in re-upping him.   

We're not well coached - but the players own a LOT of the bad play.   At least in Marshall/Roby/Leary's case, we can get out of those deals now.   Sadly, we could have avoided the financial mess with Davis/Keenum, but what's done is done.  At least we didn't get hooked into an expense 2nd contract with Roby.  

It's time to move on, and get cheap.   Our window to get cap-healthy is 2020 - realistically, it's hard to see us competing in 2019 as a result.  I'm OK with that - so long as we don't try to go half-way.   Get a QBOTF lined up (god I hope it's Kelly, the 2019 class is scary if we can't get Herbert, and I don't see Elway letting QB go later if Kelly isn't the guy, he's going to be under brutal pressure to find that guy if Kelly isn't, and the 2018 class shows they were all worth taking when he passed).   And go for value, and young skilled guys (not just tool guys who can't actually play - fortunately, that painful lesson from 2017's draft may have sunk in for Elway). 

Edited by Broncofan

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15 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

I keep seeing people talking about how Cravens makes some of our secondary expendable. How? The guy hasn't played a down in nearly two years and doesn't seem to love the game. I'd honestly be surprised to see him suit up at all for the Broncos. 

Stewart is expendable because he's an overpaid veteran on a rebuilding team. They need to see what Cravens can give them, as is the case with a lot of other untested young players. 

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6 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Stewart is expendable because he's an overpaid veteran on a rebuilding team. They need to see what Cravens can give them, as is the case with a lot of other untested young players. 

I heard Cravens is really good at running the nacho cart at practice.  

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25 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

I heard Cravens is really good at running the nacho cart at practice.  

Nachos? Didn't he do an entire cookbook with Chrissy Tiegen, I would expert more out of him.

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