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When VJ gets fired

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12 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Unfortunately I think this mid-to-late season rally has actually saved Vance's job, barring a total collapse in the final quarter of the season. I think not just the wins but the fact that we played the Texans, Rams and Chiefs (twice) very close also works in his favor. I don't think it's going to come down to whether we post a 9-7 or 10-6 or even 8-8 record or if we make the playoffs or not, I think the powers that believe the trend lines are pointing in the right direction and they'll bring Vance back for a third year. 

Two other things working in Vance's favor, and we shouldn't discount either of these as they do factor into the decision, Elway would prefer to have a measure of continuity and Ellis has run the team into a financial pickle since he's been unable to find a naming rights partner and he's not going to want to pay out the rest of Vance's contract (and his staff's) and pay a new coach (and his staff's). 

Even if this team keeps Joseph (barring a collapse, which shouldn't happen), Joe Woods and Musgrave have to go.

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Man, I am going to have to flip flop a bit on this.  I was all for getting rid of Joseph a month or 2 ago.  I also wouldn’t have any issue if that is ultimately what happens.  He’ll have a losing record as an HC, he has made some bonehead game day decisions, and at times he definitely does look lost on the sideline.

However, I wouldn’t have any issue if they kept him now either.  A large part of coaching is keeping a team motivated and competing.  There were multiple weeks this year where Denver was on the brink of being all but eliminated and this team came out and fought their butts off, it’s easy to lose a team when you’re losing and trading players and for Joseph that hasn’t happened yet.  Also in multiple weeks this year I believe Joseph was a loss away from losing his job.  I applaud the fact (and did in the gameday threads) that he was willing to go out fighting.  He made aggressive calls, went for long FGs, faked punts, going for it on 4th down.  They didn’t always work, but I do respect the fact that he was willing to leave it all on the field, even if it meant his job.  I am sure this went a long way with the team as well and is part of the reason they’ve continued to go out and battle for him.

It’s a tough spot for Elway.  I can fully understand moving on, but also would understand why you’d keep him another year.  He’s improved and the team has improved in year 2.

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Nobody was developing last year. It was a toxic mix of, dare I say, entitled veterans and young guys who weren't ready to play at all which further ticked off the veterans. Now, they're plugging in guys everywhere we had never heard of and they are holding up. Matt LaCosse, Elijah Wilkinson, Joe Jones...

I have larger questions about what Musgrave brings to the table as an offensive mind and VJ's management chops, but I'd be happy to keep every position coach on the team right now. Can't argue with the results there. 

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Is there a way to hire a young bright offensive mind to be the offensive coordinator that has future head coach potential we can develop for a year. And if vj struggles and this is fools gold we can promote him and see how he does? 

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As I said before - to me, the real priority is to make sure we don't waste a Rd1 pick on an incredibly meh draft QB class.    That decision, though, would also have an effect on our ability to bring in a new HC that would help transform our O.  There's no doubt IMO that Lindsay, Sutton, Sanders & co. could adapt to a new HC - but that new HC would also likely want to bring in "their guy" as QBOTF.   I don't know that a 2019 HC would be patient enough to wait until 2020 to get that guy (although I will say NYG clearly did that with Fritz Shurmur, so it's not impossible).   

I agree with the take that we should keep our 2nd level coaches - our position development with the young guys has been great.  Fortunately, a new HC doesn't always make wholesale changes at the 2nd level - usually changes are made where it's not working, and 2nd level guys stay if their units are working well.  The first-level guys (OC, DC, associate HC's) usually go for sure.   So that shouldn't be a reason to keep/fire VJ IMO.

I'm still very much of the mind that VJ isn't a good HC, nothing's really changed there - but I also understand that hiring a new HC would probably increase the likelihood they want to get their future guy for QB, and hit 2019's draft early to get him.  THAT scares me a ton.    I know Keenum has zero future after his contract is up if we want to be legit contenders (and in a perfect world, zero 2019 future, but that's not happening).   Again, my preference is to still see VJ gone, long-term that's in our best interest, so long as we keep Kollar & co. at the 2nd level.   Again, though, we aren't really going anywhere with Keenum as our QB - so if it has to be a pairing that goes at the same timing...well, ugh, so be it.   My only fear with the status quo is that it prolongs the 8-8/9-7 misery we were fearing in 2016-7 (and then the bottom fell out with 2017) post-Manning with our QB carousel.

Given how much investing a Rd1 QB locks a team in, and how a new HC would be far more likely to do that, man, I'm so torn on VJ staying.  It would take a lot, lot more for me to be in his corner as a HC, but the greater priority for us to be long-term true contenders is get QB and the O right.     What's tough is that keeping VJ & Keenum together, man, the likelihood we're just stuck in the same position for 2019 (good young core, not quite good enough to be real contenders) is uber-high.   Until we upgrade QB, we're in that in-between zone - and don't get me wrong, in-between zone is still miles ahead of where we were pre-2018 draft.    But while I pounded the table for QB early in 2018....man, I don't see it at all in 2019 (and before @Counselor pimps Haskins again, I think we can safely say he shouldn't be anywhere near where we pick lol).

All of which is moot if we make the playoffs - then we know he's back for sure, that's not even a Q.  But let's say we're 8-8, and out of playoffs - then in a vacuum, easy call for me - VJ goes.  But if he goes and a new HC guy gets hired with the thinking to go QB Rd1 - ugh, disaster IMO, and not just for 2019, but likely 3 years, given what we'd be forced to invest in time-wise.   If we get a new HC who's willing to wait on QB until 2020 (other than a developmental guy who could be a backup and NOT keep us from hitting 2020 hard if nothing works out), and keeps the 2nd level coaches like Kollar....then nothing but upside IMO.  But it's not like the latter's a given.  So yeah, so torn....

Edited by Broncofan

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17 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

As I said before - to me, the real priority is to make sure we don't waste a Rd1 pick on an incredibly meh draft QB class.    That decision, though, would also have an effect on our ability to bring in a new HC that would help transform our O.  There's no doubt IMO that Lindsay, Sutton, Sanders & co. could adapt to a new HC - but that new HC would also likely want to bring in "their guy" as QBOTF.   I don't know that a 2019 HC would be patient enough to wait until 2020 to get that guy (although I will say NYG clearly did that with Fritz Shurmur, so it's not impossible).   

I agree with the take that we should keep our 2nd level coaches - our position development with the young guys has been great.  Fortunately, a new HC doesn't always make wholesale changes at the 2nd level - usually changes are made where it's not working, and 2nd level guys stay if their units are working well.  The first-level guys (OC, DC, associate HC's) usually go for sure.   So that shouldn't be a reason to keep/fire VJ IMO.

I'm still very much of the mind that VJ isn't a good HC, nothing's really changed there - but I also understand that hiring a new HC would probably increase the likelihood they want to get their future guy for QB, and hit 2019's draft early to get him.  THAT scares me a ton.    I know Keenum has zero future after his contract is up if we want to be legit contenders (and in a perfect world, zero 2019 future, but that's not happening).   Again, my preference is to still see VJ gone, long-term that's in our best interest, so long as we keep Kollar & co. at the 2nd level.   Again, though, we aren't really going anywhere with Keenum as our QB - so if it has to be a pairing that goes at the same timing...well, ugh, so be it.   My only fear with the status quo is that it prolongs the 8-8/9-7 misery we were fearing in 2016-7 (and then the bottom fell out with 2017) post-Manning with our QB carousel.

Given how much investing a Rd1 QB locks a team in, and how a new HC would be far more likely to do that, man, I'm so torn on VJ staying.  It would take a lot, lot more for me to be in his corner as a HC, but the greater priority for us to be long-term true contenders is get QB and the O right.     What's tough is that keeping VJ & Keenum together, man, the likelihood we're just stuck in the same position for 2019 (good young core, not quite good enough to be real contenders) is uber-high.   Until we upgrade QB, we're in that in-between zone - and don't get me wrong, in-between zone is still miles ahead of where we were pre-2018 draft.    But while I pounded the table for QB early in 2018....man, I don't see it at all in 2019 (and before @Counselor pimps Haskins again, I think we can safely say he shouldn't be anywhere near where we pick lol).

All of which is moot if we make the playoffs - then we know he's back for sure, that's not even a Q.  But let's say we're 8-8, and out of playoffs - then in a vacuum, easy call for me - VJ goes.  But if he goes and a new HC guy gets hired with the thinking to go QB Rd1 - ugh, disaster IMO, and not just for 2019, but likely 3 years, given what we'd be forced to invest in time-wise.   If we get a new HC who's willing to wait on QB until 2020 (other than a developmental guy who could be a backup and NOT keep us from hitting 2020 hard if nothing works out), and keeps the 2nd level coaches like Kollar....then nothing but upside IMO.  But it's not like the latter's a given.  So yeah, so torn....

I want a Corner round 1. I want a RT. I want  to build this team up and get a QB next year. Let’s hit on this draft class too and be loaded going forward. But if Haskins did slip to us... choo choo

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16 minutes ago, Counselor said:

I want a Corner round 1. I want a RT. I want  to build this team up and get a QB next year. Let’s hit on this draft class too and be loaded going forward. But if Haskins did slip to us... choo choo

No problem with that take.   The strength of Rd1 is trenches and there are 2-3 CB's I think are Rd1 worthy - and while it hurts that Trey Adams is staying, I'm comfortable with either Little or Williams in the mid-high teens (David Edwards, need more tape and a better feel for his athletic traits and how they play in the NFL - the Big10 pedigree is so impressive, though, even if he's only likely a RT).   Hit that hard or get a CB, true BPA.     Could not agree more.   

There's risk with Haskins in Rd1 this year given what he's going to cost, but one thing's increasingly clear IMO - with that QB top-end class being so bad, I think him slipping out of the top 10 is a pipe dream.

Edited by Broncofan

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33 minutes ago, Counselor said:

I want a Corner round 1. I want a RT. I want  to build this team up and get a QB next year. Let’s hit on this draft class too and be loaded going forward. But if Haskins did slip to us... choo choo

Given what our OL Staff has been able to do with the talent we have I'm not certain a 1st would be necessary at RT.

That said, I'd like to see the OL get a little more mid round attention every year. 

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Like I said earlier in the week, looks like three-game win streak and the fact we've been competitive in most of our losses has turned down the heat on Vance's seat. 

From CBS4

Quote

 

The Broncos have now won three in a row and sit at 6-6. Joseph’s no longer on the hot seat, according to NFL insider Ian Rapoport.

After playing nearly every hot team in the NFL and falling short to many of them, it would seem those losses offered at least some utility to Joseph and the Broncos.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Like I said earlier in the week, looks like three-game win streak and the fact we've been competitive in most of our losses has turned down the heat on Vance's seat. 

From CBS4

 

With the news today that Sanders likely tore his Achilles, with the DT trade and Sanders' injury, I actually think this increases the chances that VJ stays, because there will be cover if we don't make the playoffs.   Again, I'm not at all convinced VJ is a good HC, but as long as this doesn't increase our chances that we hit QB Rd1, I'll take that over a new HC and a horrible over-reach for QB in this draft class - and then look to upgrade VJ & QB in 2020 (or mid-2019 part ways, then look in 2019-20 offseason for HC).

Edited by Broncofan

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7 hours ago, AKRNA said:

Given what our OL Staff has been able to do with the talent we have I'm not certain a 1st would be necessary at RT.

That said, I'd like to see the OL get a little more mid round attention every year. 

Not in the first. Second round for a RT is my sweet spot. Andre Dillard 

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I’m thinking playoffs Vance gets another year

But if not, I don’t know how you couldn’t want Harbaugh.  His team always has a good defense, year in year out it seems 

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3 hours ago, broncofan48 said:

I’m thinking playoffs Vance gets another year

But if not, I don’t know how you couldn’t want Harbaugh.  His team always has a good defense, year in year out it seems 

Jim or John

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5 hours ago, broncofan48 said:

I’m thinking playoffs Vance gets another year

But if not, I don’t know how you couldn’t want Harbaugh.  His team always has a good defense, year in year out it seems 

Today showed again why he’s not the long term answer.   But given this coincides with Sanders & Harris’ injuries I really think it’s no better than a 50-50 prop he’s gone at end of season.   Because those injuries will give cover for Elway.   

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