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When VJ gets fired


jsthomp2007

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2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Toub wouldn’t be O-minded but it’s hard to deny the success of the Andy Reid coaching tree.  He’s had 3-4 interviews including us and has the #1 ST unit by DVOA again.  

He must really underwhelm at interviews not to get a 2nd call.  His record is impeccable.   

Somebody mentioned wanting a coach that would manage the entire forest, not each tree. I think Toub's a "tree" guy.

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1 minute ago, AKRNA said:

Somebody mentioned wanting a coach that would manage the entire forest, not each tree. I think Toub's a "tree" guy.

He must have some issue like that, because he's never been called back for a 2nd interview after about 3-4 teams putting him on the 1st visit list.    You have to be pretty unspectacular in person / be a details guy to not get any run with his record.  Nothing wrong with that, there are guys who are not cut out to be HC's but are all-world coordinators (Son of Bum!).

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6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

He must have some issue like that, because he's never been called back for a 2nd interview after about 3-4 teams putting him on the 1st visit list.    You have to be pretty unspectacular in person / be a details guy to not get any run with his record.  Nothing wrong with that, there are guys who are not cut out to be HC's but are all-world coordinators (Son of Bum!).

Very well could be.  That’s the tough part with coaches is they’re hard to gauge.  You can look at a player and say they have the skills to be successful.  But there is almost no way as a fan to say whether or not a guy can make it as an HC.  Watching from the outside with no ability to even talk to a guy or know their philosophy makes it impossible.

I liked Toub because there has been a strong correalation of successful HCs who were never offensive or defensive coordinators and came from special teams or position coaches.  I remember reading an article that attributed this to their ability to see the whole picture, they aren’t hyper focused on one side of the ball and are less likely to try and meddle or be overly critical of coordinators.  Instead they manage them as opposed to dictate them.

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What's really irritating is that when this team plays hard, they give teams like the Rams and cheifs all they can handle. If it wasn't for poor QB play and half a dozen head scratching moments from the coaching staff every game, we might have a pretty damn ok team here. But we have a qb who can't play inside the pocket, and a coaching staff that is just outclassed in too many situations. 

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We can talk about names, and I would be big on both a hire of Jim Harbaugh and David Shaw, but what I think is important is we put together a list of criteria that is important and do not fall into the copycat game or make our decision before interviews have been conducted, like we did with our last two. Vance was going to be hired because they liked him two years prior (why I do not know, but the Matt Russell connection looms large) and Kubiak was always going to be the hire the day after John Fox was fired. What Elway should do is what he did with that Fox hire - talk to the candidates and make a choice, IIRC, most thought Elway would go for Rick Dennison but he came away impressed with Fox and liked the prior head coaching, and successful head coaching, experience he brought to the table. 

I do not want to fall into the trap of trying to copy McVay's success in L.A. and try to replicate it here; McVay is, I think, is a very unique situation that is unlikely to be replicated. I also do not like going for the "hot coordinator" route (never have liked that route) because so often that is a result of said coordinator's previous personnel and/or the head coach under whom he worked. Far too often the hot coordinator flames out; I would wager (and I don't have time to really research this right now) but I would say for every one hot coordinator that hits, four fail, and often spectacularly. 

I really want someone who has previous head coaching experience and, just as if not more importantly, success as a head coach. 

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8 hours ago, germ-x said:

Very well could be.  That’s the tough part with coaches is they’re hard to gauge.  You can look at a player and say they have the skills to be successful.  But there is almost no way as a fan to say whether or not a guy can make it as an HC.  Watching from the outside with no ability to even talk to a guy or know their philosophy makes it impossible.

I liked Toub because there has been a strong correalation of successful HCs who were never offensive or defensive coordinators and came from special teams or position coaches.  I remember reading an article that attributed this to their ability to see the whole picture, they aren’t hyper focused on one side of the ball and are less likely to try and meddle or be overly critical of coordinators.  Instead they manage them as opposed to dictate them.

Special teams coaches are so undervalued in head coaching searches. They work with players at all positions and especially young guys, have to be master motivators, play a big part in game management, aren't tied to one side of the ball. They are asked to do the most with the least. Very detail oriented and failures are magnified. 

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I'm a little worried about Kubiak being heavily involved in the front office decisions, honestly. If he was involved in the Keenum signing...that's already a massive failure. And I think Kubiak is talented, and probably better than what we have in our current front office, but the game is changing. Not sure sticking with his offensive philosophies are going to bring us success.

It's still absolutely insane that Elway had Vance and Paxton Lynch in for interviews and thought "these are the guys to lead us to success after the Manning era." Doesn't inspire too much confidence for this next hire lol 

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It's still absolutely insane that Elway had Vance and Paxton Lynch in for interviews and thought "these are the guys to lead us to success after the Manning era." Doesn't inspire too much confidence for this next hire lol 

This x1,000. Its absolutley insane to think either of those guys could give a half decent interview. Paxton was probably staring out the window at butterflies and Vance probably had pre-rehersed, cardboard answers like a beauty pagent contestant.

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I can't imagine Jim Harbaugh playing second fiddle. His ego and Elway's ego could create a toxic environment, even if it would be nice to see a coach who can provide a little push back. 

If Elway has an ego that reduces the number of quality coaches this team could target, then he shouldnt be here.

The time of 'yes men' has to be over and if that is something that John cant live with, then give him his walking papers.

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22 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

This x1,000. Its absolutley insane to think either of those guys could give a half decent interview. Paxton was probably staring out the window at butterflies and Vance probably had pre-rehersed, cardboard answers like a beauty pagent contestant.

If Elway has an ego that reduces the number of quality coaches this team could target, then he shouldnt be here.

The time of 'yes men' has to be over and if that is something that John cant live with, then give him his walking papers.

This is the key - Elway must be ready to cede some of his control.   It's clear him being in complete control is not a workable solution.

We should not be looking to part ways with him as the default - as @germ-x pointed out, Elway still has a lot of strengths as a GM.  But he can't be the overlord, ruling the kingdom with an iron fist.  Because the kingdom is being gradually run into the ground this way.   The fact Elway chose to restructure Von and create cap hell down the line should also be held against him the 2018 ledger, along with the Keenum choice. 

We don't necessarily need to throw out the baby with the bathwater - but just as Elway ceded draft input to allow more outside opinion and metrics to be used this year, he should be ready to cede more team control to a more qualified HC candidate.   If Elway is the reason we can't get qualified HC candidates, then that's a bridge too far.   This offseason will go a long way to determine if Elway's got a 202X in his future as a GM with us.  I'm encouraged by his willingness to change draft-style - now he's got to do the same with QB evaluation, and likely the amount of power the next HC has.   Will he do it?  That's probably the most important Q we'll have answered this offseason (QBOTF is probably the most important Q to answer, but given how bad QB draft class is at the top, sadly, I don't think we're getting a clear answer there, so Elway's HC and amount of team control will be the next most important, that we should get a clear answer on).

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1 hour ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

I agree with AAA not a fan of first time HC, the jump is just too big for most of them to handle the first time around. Jim and John Harbaugh, Shaw, Chris Peterson,  Dan Campbell. That’s my top 5 right now 

Yeah Chris Petersen is one I would be happy with too, and because I'm a Mountain West guy, I've seen for years what he did at Boise State; he seems like the kind of "I'll take mine and beat yours and then I'll take yours and beat mine," kind of coach and that's an incredible trait. He coaches to his talent not to some predetermined scheme. That's why so many hot coordinators fail, they go in with the mindset of "this is what got me here, this is what worked when I was the X coordinator in Y city, I have to make it work here." I've literally heard coaches say that, "this is what I know so this is what we're going to do." 

Dan Campbell isn't one I thought of but it is an intriguing option. He did coach 12 games as a HC in Miami and has coordinated under a number of different head coaches. He's also a former player and that builds instant credibility in the locker room which we desperately need as it has become clear the vets do not have much respect for Vance. 

Another name that is floating around as potentially being available is Mike McCarthy. The only thing that worries me there is that he has had the luxury of having one of game's all-time great QBs who possess a skill set that is not easily replicated. However, with McCarthy (same can be said for Jason Garrett) we know the job and spotlight would not be too big for him, which would be nice after having Vance who is in so far over his head he can't even see the light on the surface. 

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13 hours ago, 1234567 said:

What's really irritating is that when this team plays hard, they give teams like the Rams and cheifs all they can handle. If it wasn't for poor QB play and half a dozen head scratching moments from the coaching staff every game, we might have a pretty damn ok team here. But we have a qb who can't play inside the pocket, and a coaching staff that is just outclassed in too many situations. 

I' going to add to that "and a defense that can't play four quarters and make stops when they need to".

Blaming Case for this seasons woes is pretty narrow vision. Teams have been running or throwing against us at will. Our D is average at best. 

With our 2015 D this team is undefeated. We've only held two teams to less than 20 points and won both. 

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36 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I' going to add to that "and a defense that can't play four quarters and make stops when they need to".

Blaming Case for this seasons woes is pretty narrow vision. Teams have been running or throwing against us at will. Our D is average at best. 

With our 2015 D this team is undefeated. We've only held two teams to less than 20 points and won both. 

Completely agree about the 2015 defense part. I guess my main knock on Case is that there have been several instances where he's made crucial mistakes that cost us a chance at winning. No doubt, if we had 2015's defense, Keenum's play would be somewhat of a moot point, and yeah we'd be extremely undefeated. But since we don't, it's a little more important to have a QB who performs and doesn't turn the ball over. Defensive issues aside, I think a guy could just as easily say with a top 10 QB this team is at least 6-2.

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