When VJ gets fired

[AkronsWitness]

36 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I’d disagree on the OL.  Denver’s spent the 20th pick on an OL.  Went out and signed Leary, traded for Veldheer, and already had Paradis on the roster.

NFL OLs just suck.  Even the good ones suck compared to the 80s or 90s.  I’m not saying just throw any body out there.

Just as an example, as of Week 6 PFF had Denver’s OL graded as the 4th best unit in the NFL.  That’s even with crap at QB.  Defensive front 7 talent is just miles ahead of OL talent.  I attribute much of it to the college spread that doesn’t ask OLs to block for very long and leads NCAA teams to put their best talent on the defensive side of the ball to combat it.

They have made moves to bring guys in, but nearly all of them outside of Leary have been JAGs. Watson, Veldheer, Bolles was questionable at the spot they took him, McGovern was a mid-round pick, Donald Stephenson was a retread, ect, ect, ect.

Not saying they havent tried, but it sure has always felt like almost every move on the offensive line for the past 4 years has been a stop gap option or a developmental mid-late round pick. They have made 2 good efforts at getting a legit starter on the OL in 4 years. Bolles and Leary. And Bolles is garbage who needs replaced next year. So they have potentially 3 starting offensive line spots around Leary/Paradis (whose contract is up) to fill next offseason.

 

[lomaxgrUK]

5 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

So they have potentially 3 starting offensive line spots around Leary/Paradis (whose contract is up) to fill next offseason.

 

I imagine Leary is gone next year. He's been above average at best for us, and he's coming off a torn Achilles with a cap hit of $9.4 mill vs a dead cap of just $1.75 mill to cut him.

You're right though - the OL is a mess still.

[jsthomp2007]

3 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I imagine Leary is gone next year. He's been above average at best for us, and he's coming off a torn Achilles with a cap hit of $9.4 mill vs a dead cap of just $1.75 mill to cut him.

You're right though - the OL is a mess still.

I think they should apply all the same matrices that was used in selecting Sutton, Hamilton, Freemen, and et al, on both the defensive and offensive lines...and I think they should scrap the whole line and start over a bit and take the first four to five rounds to select nothing but offensive linemen...I don't think Keenum is going anywhere next year, so why not build a wall for the next QB to work behind? They have a nice nucleus of offensive talent (outside of QB) to where a young QB could walk into a nice situation.   

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

There were really no options in FA for a QB given the market and the huge tag on Cousins.  So I don't really put Kessum on him. 

There were numerous better options than giving a one-year-wonder a middle tier starters salary for two guaranteed years. McCown, Teddy, McCarron, Glennon, McCoy, Fitzmagic, Henne are all guy that would give us similar production to Case, cost magnitudes less and wouldnt have required a two year commitment.

There were many, many better options than Case.

[germ-x]

Here is the thing when it comes to the OL, they suck league wide haha.  Now like I said it doesn’t mean just ignore it, but there needs to be some perspective.

Bolles and Paradis are the two best examples on Denver’s OL.  Bolles obviously gets beat and is as bad as it gets when it comes to penalties.  Even then PFF has him with a 69 grade and the #30 OT in the NFL.  As much as we all like to hate on Bolles, he’s league average (again telling you how bad OTs league wide are). In a perfect world we’d replace him at LT and move him to RT or OG (I still think he’d make one hell of a LG), but it’d be hard to sell a move to OG unless Denver hits the lottery with a couple OTs.  Last year Nate Solder became the highest paid OT in the NFL and hadn’t graded over a 75 according to PFF in multiple years and is currently grading only 3 points higher than Bolles.

In the case of Paradis, he’s been absolutely abused in multiple games this year and yet is PFFs #2 graded OC up to this point.  Paradis literally has no special qualities, he does a solid job, but nothing spectacular, yet based on that current grade he’s played like an all pro up to this point when compared to OCs league wide.

On a side note to the above, Connor McGovern is the #16 graded OG and is grading as one of the best run blockers in the NFL.

Ultimately, QBs and OCs have to help these OLs out.  The days of the mid/late 90s Broncos OLs who could come out and roll teams are over and probably won’t be making a come back for awhile with the quick passing direction the league is moving in.

I really like what Musgraves has done with the running game, but not so much in the passing game.  This team has nothing going for it when it comes to the quick hitting passing game.  Part of that is Keenum who has no timing, but these long developing pass plays kill this team.  Again Keenum has no timing and his ability to manipulate the pocket is atrocious.  

 

[champ11]

32 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

There were numerous better options than giving a one-year-wonder a middle tier starters salary for two guaranteed years. McCown, Teddy, McCarron, Glennon, McCoy, Fitzmagic, Henne are all guy that would give us similar production to Case, cost magnitudes less and wouldnt have required a two year commitment.

There were many, many better options than Case.

I was hoping our front office evaluated Case correctly as being a tier above those guys, but obviously they failed there. Shocker 

[lomaxgrUK]

33 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Here is the thing when it comes to the OL, they suck league wide haha.  Now like I said it doesn’t mean just ignore it, but there needs to be some perspective.

Bolles and Paradis are the two best examples on Denver’s OL.  Bolles obviously gets beat and is as bad as it gets when it comes to penalties.  Even then PFF has him with a 69 grade and the #30 OT in the NFL.  As much as we all like to hate on Bolles, he’s league average (again telling you how bad OTs league wide are). In a perfect world we’d replace him at LT and move him to RT or OG (I still think he’d make one hell of a LG), but it’d be hard to sell a move to OG unless Denver hits the lottery with a couple OTs.  Last year Nate Solder became the highest paid OT in the NFL and hadn’t graded over a 75 according to PFF in multiple years and is currently grading only 3 points higher than Bolles.

In the case of Paradis, he’s been absolutely abused in multiple games this year and yet is PFFs #2 graded OC up to this point.  Paradis literally has no special qualities, he does a solid job, but nothing spectacular, yet based on that current grade he’s played like an all pro up to this point when compared to OCs league wide.

On a side note to the above, Connor McGovern is the #16 graded OG and is grading as one of the best run blockers in the NFL.

Ultimately, QBs and OCs have to help these OLs out.  The days of the mid/late 90s Broncos OLs who could come out and roll teams are over and probably won’t be making a come back for awhile with the quick passing direction the league is moving in.

I really like what Musgraves has done with the running game, but not so much in the passing game.  This team has nothing going for it when it comes to the quick hitting passing game.  Part of that is Keenum who has no timing, but these long developing pass plays kill this team.  Again Keenum has no timing and his ability to manipulate the pocket is atrocious.  

 

I agree with all of this. Granted, there are times where our OL have been beat so quick that there isn't a QB in the world that could make the play work, but for the most part I do agree the biggest issue is the QB. If your QB is good pre-snap and knows where to go with the Football as a result, then magically the OL looks better. If your QB can slide well in the pocket then magically the OL looks better. If your QB can make plays with his feet then magically the OL looks better. I would argue that Case is not better than 6/10 at all of these things.

I've no clue who is responsible (whether it be Musgrave, Keenum or Paradis) but someone should be fired/benched for the fact we, on AT LEAST 10 occasions, decided to double team Michael Brockers or Suh over Aaron Donald in the Rams game. I can't describe just how much Donald was wrecking the game every time we left him 1v1, yet for some reason we continued to do so.

Listen, I like Michael Brockers. He's a very good player but he isn't in the same world as Aaron Donald. By the 2nd time Donald had wrecked the play, why didn't we adjust our protections to just say, "we aren't going to have Aaron Donald wreck this play". If Suh makes the play, fine. If Brockers makes the play, fine. Instead, we just displayed the Coaching/leadership ineptitude we have all year and let Donald go against Max effin Garcia 1v1 for like 5 dropbacks in a row. Unreal.

/rantover

[Broncofan]

57 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Here is the thing when it comes to the OL, they suck league wide haha.  Now like I said it doesn’t mean just ignore it, but there needs to be some perspective.

Bolles and Paradis are the two best examples on Denver’s OL.  Bolles obviously gets beat and is as bad as it gets when it comes to penalties.  Even then PFF has him with a 69 grade and the #30 OT in the NFL.  As much as we all like to hate on Bolles, he’s league average (again telling you how bad OTs league wide are). In a perfect world we’d replace him at LT and move him to RT or OG (I still think he’d make one hell of a LG), but it’d be hard to sell a move to OG unless Denver hits the lottery with a couple OTs.  Last year Nate Solder became the highest paid OT in the NFL and hadn’t graded over a 75 according to PFF in multiple years and is currently grading only 3 points higher than Bolles.

In the case of Paradis, he’s been absolutely abused in multiple games this year and yet is PFFs #2 graded OC up to this point.  Paradis literally has no special qualities, he does a solid job, but nothing spectacular, yet based on that current grade he’s played like an all pro up to this point when compared to OCs league wide.

On a side note to the above, Connor McGovern is the #16 graded OG and is grading as one of the best run blockers in the NFL.

Ultimately, QBs and OCs have to help these OLs out.  The days of the mid/late 90s Broncos OLs who could come out and roll teams are over and probably won’t be making a come back for awhile with the quick passing direction the league is moving in.

I really like what Musgraves has done with the running game, but not so much in the passing game.  This team has nothing going for it when it comes to the quick hitting passing game.  Part of that is Keenum who has no timing, but these long developing pass plays kill this team.  Again Keenum has no timing and his ability to manipulate the pocket is atrocious.  

 

Again, though, we had better opportunities - Elway not only passed on Ryan Ramczyk, but Cam Robinson at T.  Robinson tore his ACL, but that's clearly a case where if Bolles ends up as a RT, we whiffed very hard - both have been far superior players, and before ppl point to them playing RT only, remember that Ramczyk started 5 games at LT and played very well - and he's overall a top 5 T already.   And given Bolles turns 27, it's not like he's getting any better, he's at his peak.   Ramczyk is 23, going on 24, and only going to get better.  

Draft-wise, Elway's love of toolsy guys with low to zero actual football skills have killed us roster-wise.    Now, it's really good that their focus on metrics / footballs-skills changed the 2018 draft - FWIW, in 2017 it would have said to take Ramczyk and  Robinson easily over Bolles (and Forrest Lamp too, but at least the G vs. T argument held).   Now, metrics alone shouldn't be the system used - we should integrate it as a part of whole evaluation system.  But man, every performance indicator predicted that Ramczyk was the far better guy...and it wasn't that close. 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-ranking-the-top-o-line-prospects-entering-the-2017-draft

 

@BroncosFan2010's list of QB alternatives holds very true for Keenum.   When it comes to QB, Elway & Kubiak have not just been left with bad choices, they've taken the wrong choice for those that have been presented.   Again, I'm not suggesting Elway's all bad - he's not.  But we've got to stop giving passes for our QB and our OL evaluation system.  I'm REALLY glad we changed OL coaches over the offseason - that was a very good step.   We overhauled the draft evaluation system, that's a great step.  But we still need to hold Elway & Kubiak accountable for terrible QB choices, and Elway/Russell/OL staff for their OL choices.     We don't get better until both improve...significantly.

[jsthomp2007]

^^^I am hoping last year's draft was a revelation on drafts to come when we get 3-4 solid...very solid, guys.  They need to apply whatever they did last year to getting a QB and building the trenches.  

 

I mean, really they are going to have to build to contend with Mahones on a yearly basis...might need some more CBs and then get prepared to have some shootouts with him in the division.  

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I was hoping our front office evaluated Case correctly as being a tier above those guys, but obviously they failed there. Shocker 

This is just nuts though. Case was arguably on the most talented team in the league last season, with an elite defense and great skill players. His only season of acceptable starter level play came in a place with absolutley ideal conditions. Not to mention in a dome. Anyone with half a brain wouldnt wager a two year starters contract on a 30 year old journeyman who had one year of acceptable play under unrepeatably ideal conditions.

Its far and away the worse move Elway has made in his tenure. I have held that view since the ink was wet on his contract. We now arguably have the worst QB situation in the league, and that QB is due 26M over the next 1.5 seasons. Its a tremendous financial pitfall and will go a long way in impeding quality FA moves in 2019, especially since this team would have looming financial issues next summer even if we had a rookie scale QB behind center.

[broncofan48]

3 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

This is just nuts though. Case was arguably on the most talented team in the league last season, with an elite defense and great skill players. His only season of acceptable starter level play came in a place with absolutley ideal conditions. Not to mention in a dome. Anyone with half a brain wouldnt wager a two year starters contract on a 30 year old journeyman who had one year of acceptable play under unrepeatably ideal conditions.

Its far and away the worse move Elway has made in his tenure. I have held that view since the ink was wet on his contract. We now arguably have the worst QB situation in the league, and that QB is due 26M over the next 1.5 seasons. Its a tremendous financial pitfall and will go a long way in impeding quality FA moves in 2019, especially since this team would have looming financial issues next summer even if we had a rookie scale QB behind center.

Not that Elway planned it this way but even with Keenums cap hit if it’s a rookie QB next year then year 2 in 2020 is when Denver should look to compete again.  Personally I think 2019 is probably a sunk year as well.  Just hoping another good draft to go along with this years class makes for enough excitement 

[champ11]

1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

This is just nuts though. Case was arguably on the most talented team in the league last season, with an elite defense and great skill players. His only season of acceptable starter level play came in a place with absolutley ideal conditions. Not to mention in a dome. Anyone with half a brain wouldnt wager a two year starters contract on a 30 year old journeyman who had one year of acceptable play under unrepeatably ideal conditions.

Its far and away the worse move Elway has made in his tenure. I have held that view since the ink was wet on his contract. We now arguably have the worst QB situation in the league, and that QB is due 26M over the next 1.5 seasons. Its a tremendous financial pitfall and will go a long way in impeding quality FA moves in 2019, especially since this team would have looming financial issues next summer even if we had a rookie scale QB behind center.

I mean it’s not insane to think a player has improved and become starter quality (Alex Smith is the first example that comes to mind) and it’s not insane to think a front office can evaluate a player regardless of how good or bad their situation is. 

[Broncofan]

19 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I mean it’s not insane to think a player has improved and become starter quality (Alex Smith is the first example that comes to mind) and it’s not insane to think a front office can evaluate a player regardless of how good or bad their situation is. 

Not insane at all.  But fool me once, shame on you.   Fool me 3-4x... 

It’s not a lost cause - if Elway changes the methodology he’s used with Kubiak. If it’s the status quo though...hard to get excited.  

[AnAngryAmerican]

Interesting to think how Chad and Case are polar opposites - Case has everything you want from an intangible standpoint and Chad everything from a physical standpoint. 

On BF2010’s point, not only way Case evaluated on a team with ideal conditions but also one which played in a division that had the always-mediocre Lions, the Bears with a roomie HC and QB and the Packers without Aaron Rodgers.

Our FO did swing and miss on Case, I also said as much before the ink was dry,  but I also come back to the point I’ve made that they were hoping on a prayer that Case could at least somewhat be close to last year as they owed the vets a chance to be competitive. 

I will disagree that Case was the biggest mistake; hiring Vance instead of Kyle was a bigger one. I also think - and again this is nothing against Chubb who I think has a long and productive Bronco career and lives up to being a No. 5 overall pick - that passing on a QB at No. 5 was a big mistake. Whether or not Rosen/Allen pan out is almost beside the point, when you don’t have a franchise QB and have the No. 5 pick with 2-3 well-regraded QB prospects on the board, you don’t pass up that chance. 

As I’ve long maintained, this team is good enough to win 6 or 7 games, i.e. out of playoff contention by Thanksgiving, but not bad enough to get a top-5 pick where franchise QBs can be found. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I will disagree that Case was the biggest mistake; hiring Vance instead of Kyle was a bigger one

This probably was the biggest mistake of Elway's tenure. The scariest thing about Elway going w/ Vance over Shanny is the 'yes man' aspect of the decision. There is no way a GM could have a chance at these two and take VJ over Shanny, unless the decision weighed 'taking orders' as a qualification. Shanny was a bit too maverick'y, not certain to toe the line. VJ was always a 'yes man' pick, a guy who would curl up as Elway's lapdog and not question the pecking order. I dont think the front office should be divided into factions, but a little pushback is good from time to time. VJ is just totally, completely and utterly worthless. He is magnitudes worse than Josh McDaniels (As a coach, you take GM'ing into account and this evaluation changes).

Quote

I will disagree that Case was the biggest mistake; hiring Vance instead of Kyle was a bigger one. I also think - and again this is nothing against Chubb who I think has a long and productive Bronco career and lives up to being a No. 5 overall pick - that passing on a QB at No. 5 was a big mistake. Whether or not Rosen/Allen pan out is almost beside the point, when you don’t have a franchise QB and have the No. 5 pick with 2-3 well-regraded QB prospects on the board, you don’t pass up that chance. 

I think signing Case and passing on a QB go hand-in-hand. Elway was scared to draft a bust, Kubiak likely lobbied for the 'play action guy' in Case and the rest is history.