2019 Draft - Edge Rushers

[MSURacerDT55]

19 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Well, yes, it is my concern. And it is the concern of others. I also won't agree that Shaun Rogers is the worst case scenario. We've seen some other very gifted big men not turn out as well as Rogers. Dontari Poe or Big Daddy Wilkinson are examples. If you want to talk a guy who didn't pan out at all, you can point to Kenrick Ellis or Cam Thomas. And we'll have to see how Vita Vea does. He didn't shine like many expected he would as a rookie. But yeah, there are plenty of examples of good/great players with his sort of skill-set (Kris Jenkins, Hicks, Ngata, Ted Washington, Jamal Williams, Rogers, Dareus, Sam Adams, etc.). The real question is if coaching will stick. Looking at his fellow DLs, it feels like he should be a much more technically developed player than he is.

That's fine, that's my call and will take the ridicule if doesn't happen. That's just what I project....

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by MSURacerDT55

[jrry32]

Just now, MSURacerDT55 said:

That's fine, that's my call and will take the ridicule if doesn't happen. That's just what I project....

It doesn't worry you that his technical inconsistencies sometimes end up with him being handled one on one by guys who have nowhere near the talent? I'm not pounding the table for him with the Rams, but if they draft him, I won't be crying. I'll trust Wade and our FO on this one. He has the sort of gifts that could shine in Wade's scheme. But I am concerned because he doesn't play to his ability often enough for me. It's frustrating to watch him play because when he's on, he's such a force. His punch is so forceful and violent. I'd say he has the football version of prime Mike Tyson's punching power. On top of that, he's a gifted mover and has the power to absolutely overwhelm opponents.

But there are too many plays where he doesn't do anything with it. Instead of punching the half man and then following up that jolting punch with some sort of plan, he often allows his punches to land square (which still jolt the hell out of the OL) and then doesn't follow it up with any real plan. My god, if that dude landed a half-man punch and then followed it up with the bull-pull, I feel like just that one move could win him a lot of reps. If he actually learned to use an array of moves, he would be an unstoppable force.

[KellChippy]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

 The real question is if coaching will stick. Looking at his fellow DLs, it feels like he should be a much more technically developed player than he is.

True that.  I’m not sure if it seems people are lower on him than they actually are because he was such a playmaker his freshman year.  He looked like a potential  top 5 pick, the next Haloti.

He obviously didn’t develop into that,  but I still like him in the second half of the first round depending on scheme.

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by KellChippy

[MSURacerDT55]

34 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It doesn't worry you that his technical inconsistencies sometimes end up with him being handled one on one by guys who have nowhere near the talent? I'm not pounding the table for him with the Rams, but if they draft him, I won't be crying. I'll trust Wade and our FO on this one. He has the sort of gifts that could shine in Wade's scheme. But I am concerned because he doesn't play to his ability often enough for me. It's frustrating to watch him play because when he's on, he's such a force. His punch is so forceful and violent. I'd say he has the football version of prime Mike Tyson's punching power. On top of that, he's a gifted mover and has the power to absolutely overwhelm opponents.

But there are too many plays where he doesn't do anything with it. Instead of punching the half man and then following up that jolting punch with some sort of plan, he often allows his punches to land square (which still jolt the hell out of the OL) and then doesn't follow it up with any real plan. My god, if that dude landed a half-man punch and then followed it up with the bull-pull, I feel like just that one move could win him a lot of reps. If he actually learned to use an array of moves, he would be an unstoppable force.

No, I don't expect guys to be finished products coming out of college, even guys who are successful in the league aren't technically sound. I've seen Akiem Hicks totally destroy a guy to make a play with little to no technique. Yes, it is very important but every successful player doesn't always take the correct step or use the correct hand placement. I just know the impact of a guy of his size and skillset and know the impact he could have on a whole defense.

Plus you have no idea what he's being instructed to do, there is a story with every rep, there could be a stunt where it causes for him to take the whole man instead of a half and move a guy out of his gap or a blitz where he moves from one gap to another and bulls a guard to open a gap for a guy to blitz into the gap he originally had, he didn't make the play but he made the play. I saw so many dog blitzes and stunts that got home because of the attention and work of Lawrence, but I also know the game a little bit more intimately, every play has a defensive call that we aren't privy to.

Bottom line, sure he can add a move or two (when pass rushing), you don't use moves when you are carrying our a defensive call, if you do, that means you are deviating from the call which will not sit well with the DC. I actually believe that he should also be who he is, he isn't an up the field penetrator and shouldn't be viewed or judged as such (as far as pass rushing), he is a power guy and he probably needs a few more clubs, some push-pulls, and forklifts.

 

 

Also for all the talk about his technique, he uses his hands very well to create separation from the OL as well,

Edited March 19, 2019 by MSURacerDT55

[Teen Girl Squad]

Serious question, how sure are we that Nick Bosa is a lock it in top prospect? I know he's been injured during the process (a concern in and of itself) but I always am wary when people just pencil a guy in and there seems to be a lack of detailed/true evaluation. Doesn't mean I think he's overrated or a bust but it reminds me a bit of Clowney where people just showed the Michigan play on loop for 18months and got him drafted 1 overall even though Mack was the better fit (and in retrospect the better player, which wasn't the most uncommon opinion even during draft time).

[BleedTheClock]

1 hour ago, Teen Girl Squad said:

Serious question, how sure are we that Nick Bosa is a lock it in top prospect? I know he's been injured during the process (a concern in and of itself) but I always am wary when people just pencil a guy in and there seems to be a lack of detailed/true evaluation. Doesn't mean I think he's overrated or a bust but it reminds me a bit of Clowney where people just showed the Michigan play on loop for 18months and got him drafted 1 overall even though Mack was the better fit (and in retrospect the better player, which wasn't the most uncommon opinion even during draft time).

Damn sure. He's a beast. A real technician with a motor and jarring power. His tape is phenomenal and he's won inside and out in college against high level competition. I have Oliver ahead of him, but it's by literally the smallest of margins. Bosa is an elite defensive talent in any draft class. I don't really have anything bad to say about Bosa other than the fact that he doesn't bend and rip like Garrett or Von, but it's not devoid from his game either. He's better than Josh Allen and Quinnen Williams for sure IMO.

[jrry32]

7 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Plus you have no idea what he's being instructed to do

With certainty? No. But I feel quite confident his job wasn't to stand up off the snap and then allow himself to be sealed out of the play by a single blocker.

[kingseanjohn]

8 hours ago, jrry32 said:

We've seen some other very gifted big men not turn out as well as Rogers. Dontari Poe or Big Daddy Wilkinson are examples.

To be fair, Poe had a couple good years. His back injuries just got the best of him and he wasn't the same afterwards.

[Fl0nkerton]

Quote

Ferguson measured 6043 and 271 pounds, timed as fast as 4.75 seconds in the forty on several watches, touched 32 inches in the vertical jump and 9-feet-10 in the broad.   He also completed 24 reps on the bench press with arms that measured 34 ¼ inches.

Ferguson was run through defensive line and linebacker drills, looking terrific in both.  He moved exceedingly well and during linebacker drills, did not drop a ball.

via Tony Pauline at Draft Analyst

[Teen Girl Squad]

6 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

Damn sure. He's a beast. A real technician with a motor and jarring power. His tape is phenomenal and he's won inside and out in college against high level competition. I have Oliver ahead of him, but it's by literally the smallest of margins. Bosa is an elite defensive talent in any draft class. I don't really have anything bad to say about Bosa other than the fact that he doesn't bend and rip like Garrett or Von, but it's not devoid from his game either. He's better than Josh Allen and Quinnen Williams for sure IMO.

Thanks I figured, just wanted to hear a quick breakdown.

[ClutchDJ]

That 3 cone....good Lord

[Calvert28]

26 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

That 3 cone....good Lord

Sweet Jesus climbed back up on the cross just to die for that sin.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Calvert28

[Naz]

That 3 cone would have been second worst among DL, Edge and LB at the combine.

[CWood21]

12 hours ago, Teen Girl Squad said:

Serious question, how sure are we that Nick Bosa is a lock it in top prospect? I know he's been injured during the process (a concern in and of itself) but I always am wary when people just pencil a guy in and there seems to be a lack of detailed/true evaluation. Doesn't mean I think he's overrated or a bust but it reminds me a bit of Clowney where people just showed the Michigan play on loop for 18months and got him drafted 1 overall even though Mack was the better fit (and in retrospect the better player, which wasn't the most uncommon opinion even during draft time).

It's him or Quinnen Williams.

[Tugboat]

On 14/03/2019 at 8:20 AM, YogiBiz said:

Burns' football IQ jumps off the tape IMO. Plus his hands aren't "strong" per say, like he isn't going to win with just pushing people out of the way, but he has elite hand placement and always has his hands on the opposition's weak point. Also he's scary good at controlling the pocket and creating phantom pressure. And he hits people with authority, so I don't see the "no power", but I wish he was stronger. He also disengages blocks better than anyone in this class. He is super fluid and plays flat zones well enough to make you think with more coaching he could be great in zone. He also creates a ton of forced fumbles, but it won't be from just hit sticking people. I think he looked insanely good even with the added weight, and if he can add another 5-8 lbs he could be a scary good 3-4 OLB. I feel like Burns and Sweat could be interchangeable for different reasons and you can't go wrong with either, but they're def a class below Allen. 

The only good part of the OBJ trade is that one of these two will be there around 17, so DG better take one. 

I honestly feel like i watched a different Brian Burns than you.  I just keep seeing a guy who has jump off the screen quickness and tons of length, but gets easily walled out of almost every single run play.  It's seriously alarming, his lack of ability to get off blocks and make plays against the run.  Feels like he's on the wrong side of almost every wall-off block.  Or even push the pocket on pass plays when he can't run around the edge and beat the tackle with pure quickness and bend.  This talk of him climbing up into the Top-10...i just...really struggle with.  He does one thing really really well...and that's kinda it...

 

On 14/03/2019 at 10:00 AM, Danger said:

Where is Rashan Gary's best fit in a front 7, both for 3-4 and 4-3. DE in both or more pure Edge rusher?

3T.  But it's weird, because people are acting like he's going to be some athletic beast who can move around or something, or even that he's going to be a stud DE.  Like yeah, in that system they asked him to be the "heavy end" and that hurts his production a bit.  But is that going to get better if you throw him into a similar role against Pros?  A guy who doesn't produce because he's schemed into playing a heavy-end role in college...is that seriously someone you want to take Top-10 in the draft?  You're obviously hoping he'll blow up production-wise and outproduce his college tape if you throw him into a penetrating 3T role...but what on earth makes him better in that role than a guy like Ed Oliver who is "too small" or whatever, but has absolutely excelled as an interior disruptor?

I don't get the Rashan Gary thing at all.

 

9 hours ago, Naz said:

That 3 cone would have been second worst among DL, Edge and LB at the combine.

We kinda already knew that about Jaylon Ferguson tho, didn't we?  He's not a super bendy agility man.  He's a relentless, powerful 4-3 end who is going to win with brute force and technique, collapse the edge of a pocket and be disruptive and pile up TFLs and cleanup sacks mostly...

He's a violent technician with results, more than a special athlete.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Tugboat