Calvert28 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, DirtyDez said: Well he doesnt lack in "being an ***" area of scouting. Kind of like Derwin who said Dallas would have to trade up alot to actually draft him. Or Josh Rosen saying there were 9 other mistakes ahead of him and he led his team to a 1st overall pick playing like Jimmy Clausen. Edited January 2, 2019 by Calvert28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 7:17 PM, Chwf3rd25 said: 2. Josh Allen, Kentucky - incredibly explosive get off and screams off the edge, ability to bend the edge, can convert speed to power, awesome open field ability as tackler or in coverage, over-pursues at times and needs to develop some counters but elite edge rusher tool set. Grade: Top 10 I think Allen is getting a tad overhyped. I think he falls squarely into that category of, jack of all trades - master of none. He's a tall OLB that has some speed and power on the edge. He's smart and picks his spots to turn it on. But he's not a consistent edge rusher. And he's not a force vs the run. He can show up at times but I don't think you want him regularly setting the edge. He's aware in coverage and has experience in zones but he doesn't have the mobility or open field ability of a typical off the ball LB. I think he's kind of like a skinny Preston Smith or taller Kyle Van Noy or a combination of both. On 1/1/2019 at 8:18 AM, Ozzy said: As a pure 3/4 OLB Polite has ability just because of his quickness but you sure better be fine with the edge not being held. I would not take him as a 3/4 OLB over these top four. Polite is quite small, great athlete but very small. He's listed 6'2 242. Von Miller's 6'2.5 245. Cam Wake was 6'2.5 236. Mack was 6'2.5 250. Harold Landry was 6'2 250. I don't think size will be the issue. While power isn't his strong suit he's not getting habitually obliterated. I think he has a solid frame and lower body with the willingness to be physical. It's just technique and strength. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrownLeader said: He's listed 6'2 242. Von Miller's 6'2.5 245. Cam Wake was 6'2.5 236. Mack was 6'2.5 250. Harold Landry was 6'2 250. I don't think size will be the issue. While power isn't his strong suit he's not getting habitually obliterated. I think he has a solid frame and lower body with the willingness to be physical. It's just technique and strength. All of the guys you listed can hold the edge and are strong at the point of attack, the weakest being Harold Landry but even he held the edge in college. Mack was a brick S house in college and now in the NFL, he is well put together and Von Miller was wildly productive for clearly more than once season in college. Polite does not have a similar build to any of them I feel regardless of height or weight, he plays small and literally looks small. Polite has really been good only one year, he flashed sure at times as a FR and SOPH but was very in and out of the lineup and even this year he was in and out for obvious reasons. Maybe if one is playing him at OLB and does not want him to do anything in terms of the run and only be a pass rush only guy maybe. But my guess is his strength workout numbers might be an issue, he just does not look or play very strong at all. Quick and athletic, decent in space and good speed rusher who can move around and pressure the QB. But you want to defend the run, all the guys again you listed can do that some are great at it in college, Polite to me cannot. It will be interesting to see how athletic he really is at the combine. If one only wants speed he could maybe be your guy, but if you want power he is not it. Josh Allen is not a consistent edge rusher? He is way more consistent than Polite over more than just one season obviously, he was good as a SOPH, JR and is great now as a SR. He can handle contract at the point and get off it, he can push guys back and bend the corner. Overhyped as a #1 pick sure, but kid totally has top 10 potential especially if he works out well and proves just how athletic he is because as of right now his play shows he is a damn good athlete. Go ask Charles Harris about not being strong at the point of attack, he was super quick burst, super quick off the ball obviously not as success in the NFL currently but maybe he is not being used correctly or is in the right system. Dee Ford is the ideal for a guy like Polite to achieve towards, but do me Ford showed a lot more grit and toughness than Polite has shown in college. Ford was tough and fought through a lot injuries in college but stood up to physical tackles and played consistently aggressive but it was only really that one senior year where he was at that level. And one could argue in the NFL if he was on a different team he would not be nearly as successful, sure is nice being up on the scoreboard and being allowed to rush the passer as freely as they have in KC this year. Nice having Chris Jones take pressure off as well not to mention Houston but that D is all about rushing the passer and not about much else. So which team Polite is drafted by will mean a lot... Edited January 2, 2019 by Ozzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDez Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Calvert28 said: Well he doesnt lack in "being an ***" area of scouting. Kind of like Derwin who said Dallas would have to trade up alot to actually draft him. Or Josh Rosen saying there were 9 other mistakes ahead of him and he led his team to a 1st overall pick playing like Jimmy Clausen. Which will make his 2nd year leap under Ryan Gosling all the more triumphant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chwf3rd25 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, BrownLeader said: I think Allen is getting a tad overhyped. I think he falls squarely into that category of, jack of all trades - master of none. He's a tall OLB that has some speed and power on the edge. He's smart and picks his spots to turn it on. But he's not a consistent edge rusher. And he's not a force vs the run. He can show up at times but I don't think you want him regularly setting the edge. He's aware in coverage and has experience in zones but he doesn't have the mobility or open field ability of a typical off the ball LB. I think he's kind of like a skinny Preston Smith or taller Kyle Van Noy or a combination of both. This evaluation seems like it's based too much on Allen's 2017 film, not 2018. This year, he absolutely screams off the edge with elite get-off and can easily bend the edge. He needs to work more on inside counters and a more consistent speed to power move but he's shown the ability to use his hands and bench press OTs in the SEC plus he has the size and length to become a good power rusher. He's already a phenomenal speed rusher and he can easily develop into a very good power rusher as well. I really disagree about his consistency as a rusher and while I agree he's not great vs the run he's by no means a liability there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, BrownLeader said: I think Allen is getting a tad overhyped. I think he falls squarely into that category of, jack of all trades - master of none. He's a tall OLB that has some speed and power on the edge. He's smart and picks his spots to turn it on. But he's not a consistent edge rusher. And he's not a force vs the run. He can show up at times but I don't think you want him regularly setting the edge. He's aware in coverage and has experience in zones but he doesn't have the mobility or open field ability of a typical off the ball LB. I think he's kind of like a skinny Preston Smith or taller Kyle Van Noy or a combination of both. This is something that we are talking about in the 49er forum because if Bosa goes at 1, we could very easily see Allen go #2 to us. Most of us love him, of course, but there's some rightly debated conversation on what he is at the next level. At the start of the season, I thought he was going to be another Anthony Barr and end up as something like a 4-3 off the ball linebacker instead of a true pass rusher. The good thing is, he's rather raw at the pass rushing aspect of his game, and if it's something that you can teach him and he learns, then I think he can be an electric pass rusher given that speed and explosion. Right now, I think in our scheme, and I think what a lot of people are leaning toward, is that he's a hybrid sam / leo in the 4-3 under defense we have, playing early downs at SAM and rushing from the edge on pass rushing downs. But it certainly wouldn't shock me if he ended up going the Manny Lawson / Anthony Barr road of what he is at the next level. I think he has more pass rushing upside than either of those guys coming out, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will translate at the next level. I do think that he will be a quality player however he gets there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) On 1/2/2019 at 2:09 PM, Chwf3rd25 said: This evaluation seems like it's based too much on Allen's 2017 film, not 2018. This year, he absolutely screams off the edge with elite get-off and can easily bend the edge. He needs to work more on inside counters and a more consistent speed to power move but he's shown the ability to use his hands and bench press OTs in the SEC plus he has the size and length to become a good power rusher. He's already a phenomenal speed rusher and he can easily develop into a very good power rusher as well. I really disagree about his consistency as a rusher and while I agree he's not great vs the run he's by no means a liability there. You're spot on actually. Until this week, I'd seen more 17' games of Allen then this year. He's definitely different this year. Noticably more power and he's getting off blocks and finishing much better. No issues with consistency this year. He's more Willie Mcginest than Kyle Van Noy. On 1/2/2019 at 12:03 PM, Ozzy said: All of the guys you listed can hold the edge and are strong at the point of attack, the weakest being Harold Landry but even he held the edge in college. Mack was a brick S house in college and now in the NFL, he is well put together and Von Miller was wildly productive for clearly more than once season in college. Polite does not have a similar build to any of them I feel regardless of height or weight, he plays small and literally looks small. Polite has really been good only one year, he flashed sure at times as a FR and SOPH but was very in and out of the lineup and even this year he was in and out for obvious reasons. Maybe if one is playing him at OLB and does not want him to do anything in terms of the run and only be a pass rush only guy maybe. But my guess is his strength workout numbers might be an issue, he just does not look or play very strong at all. Quick and athletic, decent in space and good speed rusher who can move around and pressure the QB. But you want to defend the run, all the guys again you listed can do that some are great at it in college, Polite to me cannot. It will be interesting to see how athletic he really is at the combine. If one only wants speed he could maybe be your guy, but if you want power he is not it. Josh Allen is not a consistent edge rusher? He is way more consistent than Polite over more than just one season obviously, he was good as a SOPH, JR and is great now as a SR. He can handle contract at the point and get off it, he can push guys back and bend the corner. Overhyped as a #1 pick sure, but kid totally has top 10 potential especially if he works out well and proves just how athletic he is because as of right now his play shows he is a damn good athlete. Go ask Charles Harris about not being strong at the point of attack, he was super quick burst, super quick off the ball obviously not as success in the NFL currently but maybe he is not being used correctly or is in the right system. Dee Ford is the ideal for a guy like Polite to achieve towards, but do me Ford showed a lot more grit and toughness than Polite has shown in college. Ford was tough and fought through a lot injuries in college but stood up to physical tackles and played consistently aggressive but it was only really that one senior year where he was at that level. I think he looks 6'1-6'2 , around 240-5 with long arms and a good frame. Small for a DE but not a problem at all for a hybrid. I disagree that he looks like a complete liability holding the edge. He's raw, but for his size, he's got solid shock in his hands, plays with leverage and can hold his ground. He's difficult to get a solid shot on, or a hold of, as well because of his quickness. He's not strong enough, 100% agree in that. It shows up in his pass rush attempting to finish and getting off blocks. And his size leads to getting engulfed from time to time. But I don't think it's as much as a weakness as you're suggesting. For an OLB/DE, he's a great piece of clay for a team to develop. I think he's a quicker Bud Dupree or a rangy Bruce Irvin. Granted, Dupree had size, but he never played like it. And ouch, bringing up Charles Harris. Loved him. But his game was quickness and hustle, not overall athletic ability or closing speed. I'll be surprised if Polite doesn't put on an athletic show in Indy. Edited January 4, 2019 by BrownLeader 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/2/2019 at 9:40 AM, Calvert28 said: Well he doesnt lack in "being an ***" area of scouting. Kind of like Derwin who said Dallas would have to trade up alot to actually draft him. Or Josh Rosen saying there were 9 other mistakes ahead of him and he led his team to a 1st overall pick playing like Jimmy Clausen. I don't see why anyone is having any issue with this. He's one of the most productive pass rushers in the Draft, and unlike Bosa he produced this year. Legitimate question to ask, if Nick Bosa's last name wasn't Bosa would he get the same kind of treatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/2/2019 at 9:40 AM, BrownLeader said: I think Allen is getting a tad overhyped. I think he falls squarely into that category of, jack of all trades - master of none. He's a tall OLB that has some speed and power on the edge. He's smart and picks his spots to turn it on. But he's not a consistent edge rusher. And he's not a force vs the run. He can show up at times but I don't think you want him regularly setting the edge. He's aware in coverage and has experience in zones but he doesn't have the mobility or open field ability of a typical off the ball LB. I think he's kind of like a skinny Preston Smith or taller Kyle Van Noy or a combination of both. I'm really not sure what more you want out of him. He's second this year in sacks despite being misused more than any other pass rushing prospect. He plays in coverage almost too much. You don't have that kind of production by accident. He's not allowed to consistently rush the passer, as Kentucky insists on dropping him into coverage. He's definitely not Preston Smith, and sure as hell not Kyle Van Noy. Not even close. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I don't see why anyone is having any issue with this. He's one of the most productive pass rushers in the Draft, and unlike Bosa he produced this year. Legitimate question to ask, if Nick Bosa's last name wasn't Bosa would he get the same kind of treatment? Because you want players with humility and not get mouthy. Cause one can be a distraction, more then one and you become the Steelers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 15 hours ago, BrownLeader said: You're spot on actually. Until this week, I'd seen more 17' games of Allen then this year. He's definitely different this year. Noticably more power and he's getting off blocks and finishing much better. No issues with consistency this year. He's more Willie Mcginest than Kyle Van Noy. What? So you ripping Allen was based off his 17 game tape? Are you serious? Stay current please before you make claims about a prospect. As for Polite will see how he does at the combine, but I doubt he totally blows it apart, the strength testing will show a ton I feel, that 225 bench and the vertical, I think he will do fine in the agility drills but why wouldn't he. Still to me there is something missing in his game (power and strength in his hands) to be considered this top flight 3/4 OLB prospect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettFavre004 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Have you already discussed Malik Reed? Saw a little highlight cut of his and was pretty impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 hours ago, CWood21 said: I don't see why anyone is having any issue with this. He's one of the most productive pass rushers in the Draft, and unlike Bosa he produced this year. Legitimate question to ask, if Nick Bosa's last name wasn't Bosa would he get the same kind of treatment? Yes. He's freaking good, dude. I'm not sure why you are hating on him. I don't think he's as good as Joey, but he's one of the best 2-3 players in this draft for sure. And he's most certainly the best DE in the class IMO. 2 hours ago, Ozzy said: As for Polite will see how he does at the combine, but I doubt he totally blows it apart, the strength testing will show a ton I feel, that 225 bench and the vertical, I think he will do fine in the agility drills but why wouldn't he. Still to me there is something missing in his game (power and strength in his hands) to be considered this top flight 3/4 OLB prospect. Polite will be fine. He's thickly built and has jarring power. He doesn't get to use it often because he puts on the jets as a speed rusher 95% of the time, but the dude is built. I think he's going to test great on the bench and the vertical. You are right though, that he doesn't always get to utilize and show off his strength because of his lack of length. The lack of length is more problematic than his actual strength, speed, and explosion. I still think he's going to win with speed in the NFL, but the lack of length is concerning. He's a freaking missile off the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownLeader Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Ozzy said: What? So you ripping Allen was based off his 17 game tape? Are you serious? Stay current please before you make claims about a prospect Lol. I think we're here to discuss and bounce stuff off each other. And we're allowed to change our minds right up until draft night. After seeing just about every 17' game I'd only watched a few this season until this convo made me find all his 18' stuff. He's not the same player he was last season at all imo. I think he went from a high 2nd to top 10. Factoring that progression is part of the eval. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 hours ago, Calvert28 said: Because you want players with humility and not get mouthy. Cause one can be a distraction, more then one and you become the Steelers. Where does the line between cockiness and confidence get crossed there? I have no issues with a player thinking he's the best player in the draft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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