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2019 NFL Draft - Offensive Line

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2 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

Any thoughts on Dalton Risner, specifically as a RT?

He's a difficult evaluation. Plays with some good technique, I'm sure he grades out highly in his room (i.e. % of time he did his job right), but he doesn't generate a ton of movement, he doesn't finish the way you'd like, and there are very few examples of him taking a pass set at Kansas State. Coaches will probably love him, scouts probably won't. A team that runs a lot of zone should like him. Teams will have to evaluate his ability to take a pass set during the offseason portion of the draft process. IDK if he's going to the senior bowl, but that would be huge for him if he can prove himself there. If not he'll likely have to do it in private workouts for the teams. Combine doesn't show you much, a pro day could but they typically don't.

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3 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

He's a difficult evaluation. Plays with some good technique, I'm sure he grades out highly in his room (i.e. % of time he did his job right), but he doesn't generate a ton of movement, he doesn't finish the way you'd like, and there are very few examples of him taking a pass set at Kansas State. Coaches will probably love him, scouts probably won't. A team that runs a lot of zone should like him. Teams will have to evaluate his ability to take a pass set during the offseason portion of the draft process. IDK if he's going to the senior bowl, but that would be huge for him if he can prove himself there. If not he'll likely have to do it in private workouts for the teams. Combine doesn't show you much, a pro day could but they typically don't.

Thanks.  I've watched a little tape on him.  Was interested in him as a plug and play RT, hopefully in the second round.  I'll watch more closely during the off-season stuff.

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Can someone suggest the top experts in offensive line scouting? I am always interested in SME to specific position scouting

 

respect @IDOG - you give really solid detail when I lurk these threads

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13 minutes ago, byrdbrane said:

Can someone suggest the top experts in offensive line scouting? I am always interested in SME to specific position scouting

 

respect @IDOG - you give really solid detail when I lurk these threads

Thanks man, nice to know a few people are appreciating it.

Lance Zierlein is the national writer that everyone credits for OL evaluations. I like Duke Manyweather and Brandon Thorn a lot more though. Not many people out there doing College OL evaluations. Best bet is to try to follow OL guys who cover college football. Cole Cubelic and Aaron Taylor are good examples. 

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15 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Thoughts on Andre Dillard?

Legitimate question, when was the last time an OL came out of a Leach-based offense had success?

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4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Legitimate question, when was the last time an OL came out of a Leach-based offense had success?

They said the same thing about Air Raid QBs, then Patrick Mahomes showed up...

All it takes is one to change the narrative.

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1 hour ago, ET80 said:

They said the same thing about Air Raid QBs, then Patrick Mahomes showed up...

All it takes is one to change the narrative.

Kind of apples-to-oranges. The game is moving towards college air raid passing concepts, it makes sense that QBs from those systems would find some success running similar plays in the NFL. OL play is not moving towards a backpedal in place of a pass set, that much hasn't changed one bit for decades even through rule changes, shifts in philosophy, etc. The OL taught under those coaches aren't taught properly. Not only are important techniques completely ignored, but they even go as far to teach them something that doesn't work at the NFL level. They teach them bad technique. Could also point out how many of them don't develop the strength needed to succeed at the NFL level. Could also point out that many or even most of their schemes, or at least how they're implemented, don't translate one bit to the NFL. 

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8 hours ago, IDOG_det said:

Kind of apples-to-oranges. The game is moving towards college air raid passing concepts, it makes sense that QBs from those systems would find some success running similar plays in the NFL. OL play is not moving towards a backpedal in place of a pass set, that much hasn't changed one bit for decades even through rule changes, shifts in philosophy, etc. The OL taught under those coaches aren't taught properly. Not only are important techniques completely ignored, but they even go as far to teach them something that doesn't work at the NFL level. They teach them bad technique. Could also point out how many of them don't develop the strength needed to succeed at the NFL level. Could also point out that many or even most of their schemes, or at least how they're implemented, don't translate one bit to the NFL. 

Don't disagree, but do you think these weaknesses apply to Dillard? I'm assuming you guys think yes, but I'm trying to get away from the "[insert player here] plays in a [insert system here]" type discussion in evaluating players.

Tell me about the player, not the system the player comes from.

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Dillard is almost impossible to evaluate because of the scheme he plays in. But he's got all of the tools in his back pocket and seems like somebody that could play LT in the NFL and match edge rushers. The quick passing game doesn't really allow him to get beaten very often, but it's still impressive what he has been able to do. He's got a nice NFL body to go along with great foot quickness and mirroring ability. In the run game, he generates more movement than I expected and is someone that has strong mitts. He doesn't let guy get off of him very easily. Pad level needs to get better, as do 99% of all collegiate OL, especially those that come from spread systems where they're in a 2-point stance 99% of the time.

I really like him, but he has major bust potential just because we haven't really seen a lot of what he can do in pass protection. Everything is so quick and snappy in that offense that he hasn't really been put in tough situations.

Edited by BleedTheClock

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2 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

But he's got all of the tools in his back pocket and seems like somebody that could play LT in the NFL and match edge rushers. The quick passing game doesn't really allow him to get beaten very often, but it's still impressive what he has been able to do. He's got a nice NFL body to go along with great foot quickness and mirroring ability. In the run game, he generates more movement than I expected and is someone that has strong mitts.

Awesome - EXACTLY what I'm looking for. 

The way I see it, pretty much every OL going forward is going to be a "victim" of scheme not aligning with what the NFL needs - unless you're getting a guy from Alabama, Wisconsin, Iowa or another school that preaches Pro level fundamentals, every guy coming out is going to be a ball of clay you're going to have to mold. Fundamentals will be lacking for most, if not all.

So, which one has a tool belt to work with? Hard to tell, I know - but I think this is the new normal.

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2 hours ago, ET80 said:

Awesome - EXACTLY what I'm looking for. 

The way I see it, pretty much every OL going forward is going to be a "victim" of scheme not aligning with what the NFL needs - unless you're getting a guy from Alabama, Wisconsin, Iowa or another school that preaches Pro level fundamentals, every guy coming out is going to be a ball of clay you're going to have to mold. Fundamentals will be lacking for most, if not all.

So, which one has a tool belt to work with? Hard to tell, I know - but I think this is the new normal.

It's not about not aligning perfectly with what NFL teams want. It's about teaching and instilling techniques that are completely off-base for offensive line play at the NFL level. It's about completely ignoring the things that are at the base of how the game is played at a high level. Mike Leach, and others who try to imitate him, fail to teach their OL how to play in a way that is rooted in the base principals of OL play (and simple biomechanics).

For example, I think Oklahoma's offensive line coach, Bill Bedenbaugh, is doing his players a disservice with some of the techniques that he teaches. Bedenbaugh actually played under Mike Leach and, honestly, that makes a lot of sense to me... I mean just look at him. But the base of what they're taught at Oklahoma and how they're taught to play is still rooted in many of the same principals that make OL play work at the NFL level, they just aren't approaching it in the most efficient (and sometimes safest) way. That's part of why you're going to see all 5 starting Oklahoma offensive lineman get a legit shot at the NFL with (at least) 3/5 of them having a legit shot to get drafted day 2 or earlier. Not everything taught at Oklahoma will be used by those guys at the NFL level, but they're still actually taught something that will apply at the next level. Can't say the same for Mike Leach and his imitators.

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1 hour ago, IDOG_det said:

It's not about not aligning perfectly with what NFL teams want. It's about teaching and instilling techniques that are completely off-base for offensive line play at the NFL level. It's about completely ignoring the things that are at the base of how the game is played at a high level. Mike Leach, and others who try to imitate him, fail to teach their OL how to play in a way that is rooted in the base principals of OL play (and simple biomechanics).

For example, I think Oklahoma's offensive line coach, Bill Bedenbaugh, is doing his players a disservice with some of the techniques that he teaches. Bedenbaugh actually played under Mike Leach and, honestly, that makes a lot of sense to me... I mean just look at him. But the base of what they're taught at Oklahoma and how they're taught to play is still rooted in many of the same principals that make OL play work at the NFL level, they just aren't approaching it in the most efficient (and sometimes safest) way. That's part of why you're going to see all 5 starting Oklahoma offensive lineman get a legit shot at the NFL with (at least) 3/5 of them having a legit shot to get drafted day 2 or earlier. Not everything taught at Oklahoma will be used by those guys at the NFL level, but they're still actually taught something that will apply at the next level. Can't say the same for Mike Leach and his imitators.

Just curious, but is this why Notre Dame produces solid offensive linemen? Obviously, under Kelly, they have run a specific offense that isn't always tailored to an NFL system, but their offensive linemen seem to have little trouble transitioning between the two. I've always heard great things about the ND strength and conditioning program and things like that, and the way they handle their offensive linemen, but I don't know enough about that situation to really know if there's any merit. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Forge said:

Just curious, but is this why Notre Dame produces solid offensive linemen? Obviously, under Kelly, they have run a specific offense that isn't always tailored to an NFL system, but their offensive linemen seem to have little trouble transitioning between the two. I've always heard great things about the ND strength and conditioning program and things like that, and the way they handle their offensive linemen, but I don't know enough about that situation to really know if there's any merit. 

 

Brian Kelly has done an amazing job at hiring OL coaches that are great teachers. He's also done well with recruiting guys that have the potential to grow into great players. First, he hired Ed Warinner who has been a good OL coach for a while. Warinner isn't the kind of guy who will come up with amazing schemes or anything but he does really well in teaching guys how to block up every scheme and he does really well in teaching how to pick up blitzes as a unit. Then he hired Harry Hiestand, who is one of the best OL coaches at any level in my opinion. Hiestand, who is now with the Bears, develops guys extremely well in all aspects of the game. Every last OL who came through Notre Dame basically had a perfect stance, which seems like a minor thing to most, but not having a functional stance is actually pretty common and it can really screw things up (imagine it being like if a QB didn't set his feet when he throws, it might look minor but it can make a world of difference). Every last OL who came through Notre Dame basically had perfect steps in the run game. They all picked up blitzes well. They all knew how to work a double team and get to the second level. Every tackle understood how to be patient in their pass set. All of their guards could pull if needed. They could all get out in space and make a block if needed. They all were taught how to do the little things on top of covering the basics.

Also, it helps that every OL that goes to Notre Dame is probably really damn smart. It's a lot easier to teach someone that's good at learning.

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I disliked Mike Leach as much as anyone over the years.  But clearly with the rule changes in football, offense in general is going towards more of a Mike Leach type offense where the passing game is key.  Even though this year, I really liked how Leach used his backs, it was quite something to see and how successful they were with a totally new QB.  And the situation they had to deal with before the season, and the fact few thought they would be good at all, this year was quite an impressive accomplishment.  In that case Dillard is a very solid player, he can hold the point, has good fundamental play and hand placement and knows how to protect the QB, I think he has a chance to be a very solid pro player.  In the Mike Leach offense this year Minshew did his share of scrambling around and it was not always quick throws instantly.  The OL had to protect even in scramble situations and did so. 

 

Sure Washington State does not have a long line of successful NFL OL coming out but this year along with Dillard I was impressed with Ryan Liam RS SOPH OG and Abraham Lucas RS FR OT who could be a possible star in the making.

 

So whatever it is that Washington State OL impressed me and they have some prospects there this year.  Sure it was surprising but they have some legit prospects there.  As for Notre Dame sure they have had a great OL program especially in terms of making good pro prospects.  And like you said it has to do with coaching, the strength program and also who they recruit and how they develop them physically and mentally.  Wisconsin is the obvious to a great OL school but I must say this year they kind of disappointed a little bit especially at the tackle position.  And coaches matter sure, like Rick Trickett a few years back on Florida State, he coached some great FSU OL groups that were very successful, but some of those guys did end up being much in the NFL, guys like Tre Jackson, Roderick Johnson, Menelik Watson, Josue Matias, Bobby Hart and Andrew Datko.  So even with good coaching in a pro style system in college it is not a slam dunk in terms of  NFL success.

 

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