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JonStark

Aaron Donald's holdout

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JonStark    21

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports Rams DT Aaron Donald is threatening to extend his holdout into the regular season.

Can we just pay the man already?

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RamPackFan    15
18 minutes ago, JonStark said:

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports Rams DT Aaron Donald is threatening to extend his holdout into the regular season.

Can we just pay the man already?

no doubt! what's the hold up? give him what he wants, dammit! he's the best DT the NFL has ever seen

 

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StLunatic88    38
26 minutes ago, RamPackFan said:

no doubt! what's the hold up? give him what he wants, dammit! he's the best DT the NFL has ever seen

 

Are you guys really surprised this is the threat from the Donald camp? This is just like every other hold out in the history of football.

Also, the idea of "give the man a blank check" is just the wrong idea. There is more at play here than just 'Pay the man!' You still have to build the rest of your roster around this contract you are putting together. How deep does the guaranteed money go? You have to protect yourself there (i.e. Albert Haynesworth) You have to keep a strong negotiation position for other contracts you have to go through, you cant set the precident that a player can just hold out and they'll get what they want.

Its not just a simple process. And at the end of the day, we own his rights for his next two accrued seasons in the NFL. We arent on the doorstep of a title, so we arent desperate to gt him back into camp, so his bargaining power isnt as strong as he thinks it is.

Like I said before, once he gets his butt back in camp. Is actually there to sit down with the right people, this deal will get done.

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RamPackFan    15
13 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Are you guys really surprised this is the threat from the Donald camp? This is just like every other hold out in the history of football.

Also, the idea of "give the man a blank check" is just the wrong idea. There is more at play here than just 'Pay the man!' You still have to build the rest of your roster around this contract you are putting together. How deep does the guaranteed money go? You have to protect yourself there (i.e. Albert Haynesworth) You have to keep a strong negotiation position for other contracts you have to go through, you cant set the precident that a player can just hold out and they'll get what they want.

Its not just a simple process. And at the end of the day, we own his rights for his next two accrued seasons in the NFL. We arent on the doorstep of a title, so we arent desperate to gt him back into camp, so his bargaining power isnt as strong as he thinks it is.

Like I said before, once he gets his butt back in camp. Is actually there to sit down with the right people, this deal will get done.

What is he asking for? or what did we already offer him at which he turned down?

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BroncoSojia    35
15 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Are you guys really surprised this is the threat from the Donald camp? This is just like every other hold out in the history of football.

Also, the idea of "give the man a blank check" is just the wrong idea. There is more at play here than just 'Pay the man!' You still have to build the rest of your roster around this contract you are putting together. How deep does the guaranteed money go? You have to protect yourself there (i.e. Albert Haynesworth) You have to keep a strong negotiation position for other contracts you have to go through, you cant set the precident that a player can just hold out and they'll get what they want.

Its not just a simple process. And at the end of the day, we own his rights for his next two accrued seasons in the NFL. We arent on the doorstep of a title, so we arent desperate to gt him back into camp, so his bargaining power isnt as strong as he thinks it is.

Like I said before, once he gets his butt back in camp. Is actually there to sit down with the right people, this deal will get done.

All of this is nonsense. Pay the man what he has earned, no ifs, ands, or buts.

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Obsidian311    0
10 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

All of this is nonsense. Pay the man what he has earned, no ifs, ands, or buts.

This exactly. Donald is a game changer on the D-line and you have to pay them to keep that dominance. I know a lot of people don't like the blank check approach but if Donald walks our defense gets a lot worse.

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StLunatic88    38
11 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Donald isn't Haynesworth. Pay the man.

Not saying that he is. But that is something you have to guard against. Not necessarily by attitude, but what if some injury happens this year, he rehabs but isnt ever the same (an injury provision in his contract wont cover that) and suddenly in year 3 of a 5 year deal he isnt worth anywhere near the $22m (speculation) you are paying him and owe him for 2 more seasons after that. Like I said, its not as easy as "pay the man", contract negotiations dont work like that, especially in a sport like this.

The yearly dollar amount isnt as important to top end players anymore. With the salary cap, we have mostly maxed out what you can pay a single player and still put together the rest of your roster. So it them comes down to guaranteed money, how much they get up fron in a signing bonus, and how much of the following years you are committed to.

What if he is asking to be paid as the highest Defensive player? (Von Miller just got 6y/$114m+) Thats $19m per year, Fine we pay him $20m per year, we can probably swing that. BUT what if he wants a 7th year, AND he wants to have almost all of it Guaranteed? No GM in good conscience is just going to sign off on that.

What if he just really wants to get paid more these 2 seasons, and isnt really  giving us some long term commitment? Say instead of the 5 or 6 year deal that many are thinking he could sign for $120M+, He is only looking for a 4 year (but still wants $100m) deal because he wants to hit Free Agency again before he turns 30? We already have him under contract for 2 more seasons at like $10m, with 3 more years of team control via Franchise Tag starting at like $18m per for those years.

There are alot of factors, and like I said. we arent a Super Bowl team, so we arent desperate.

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StLunatic88    38
14 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

All of this is nonsense. Pay the man what he has earned, no ifs, ands, or buts.

You all sound like dumb fans when you say things like this. When it comes down to it, this is a business, and no business is just going to give its employee whatever they want. Especially not an employee that isnt working at its most vital position in the company (in the NFL, that is QB)

Donald will be paid, but anything more than what we can keep him under control for the next 5 seasons(around $80 million; '17- $3.2m, '18-$6.8m, '19-$17m [estimated DT Franchise Tag], '20-$20.4m [120% of first Tag], '21-$29.3m [144% of seconf Tag]) it becomes a negotiation, and Donanld's leverage is not as much as many pretend it is.

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Obsidian311    0
8 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

You all sound like dumb fans when you say things like this. When it comes down to it, this is a business, and no business is just going to give its employee whatever they want. Especially not an employee that isnt working at its most vital position in the company (in the NFL, that is QB)

Donald will be paid, but anything more than what we can keep him under control for the next 5 seasons(around $80 million; '17- $3.2m, '18-$6.8m, '19-$17m [estimated DT Franchise Tag], '20-$20.4m [120% of first Tag], '21-$29.3m [144% of seconf Tag]) it becomes a negotiation, and Donanld's leverage is not as much as many pretend it is.

But then if you look at it that way then you start losing ground in other negotiations when you already have the tag locked up with Donald. So you have to choose to either overpay a guy in Donald that you know is a stud and is going to be the best player on your defense if not the team or overpay on a guy that isn't as important. Donald is a guy who should end his career as a Ram and the start of that is getting him on the field.

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StLunatic88    38
Posted (edited)

Remember fellas, Donald is not the only guy we have to pay going forward. Our ACTUAL Free Agents next season look like this;

  • Sammy Watkins
  • Alec Ogletree
  • Trumaine Johnson
  • LaMarcus Joyner
  • John Sullivan
  • Connor Barwin
  • Lance Dunbar
  • Ethan Westbrooks
  • Dominique Easley
  • Cody Davis
  • Nickell Robey-Coleman
  • Jake McQuaide

Now not all of these guys will be paid, most will be replaced by Draft picks and other lesser free agents. but that right there is 7 Starters, and another 5 guys who will be major contributors. Tru, Sullivan and all the other backup/contributors will likely walk, and if we wanted him back Barwin is probably reasonable. But if we have to pay Watkins, Ogletree and Joyner starting in 2018 then we have to budget the money correctly, and tossing $25 million at Donanld to just "pay the man" causes an issue.

Edited by StLunatic88

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StLunatic88    38
7 minutes ago, Obsidian311 said:

But then if you look at it that way then you start losing ground in other negotiations when you already have the tag locked up with Donald. So you have to choose to either overpay a guy in Donald that you know is a stud and is going to be the best player on your defense if not the team or overpay on a guy that isn't as important. Donald is a guy who should end his career as a Ram and the start of that is getting him on the field.

I have Zero idea what you just said here? 

What ground is being lost in what negotiations? If me, a guy posting on a forum message board, can see that the Favorable price for the Franchise Tag to a DT in 2019 is about $17m (its currently less than $15m) then I can guarantee that any less than average NFL GM has already figured this out.

Snead is not going to the table saying "yea Im looking to overpay you, just so I dont overpay someone else". He, as well as the Donald camp, are trying to gauge his true value, and pay him that number. Again, I dont think I understand whatever point you are trying to make here.

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BroncoSojia    35
25 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

You all sound like dumb fans when you say things like this. When it comes down to it, this is a business, and no business is just going to give its employee whatever they want. Especially not an employee that isnt working at its most vital position in the company (in the NFL, that is QB)

Donald will be paid, but anything more than what we can keep him under control for the next 5 seasons(around $80 million; '17- $3.2m, '18-$6.8m, '19-$17m [estimated DT Franchise Tag], '20-$20.4m [120% of first Tag], '21-$29.3m [144% of seconf Tag]) it becomes a negotiation, and Donanld's leverage is not as much as many pretend it is.

I'm always going to side with the players in these situations in football. Even on my team, as Von Miller should've been paid long before the deadline last year. The injury rate is high and the contracts aren't guaranteed. NTM teams cut players who under perform on contracts all the time, so I don't see why the reserve can't happen.

 

And I despise teams using the franchise tag like you're proposing. If you're not going to pay the guy then trade him or let him go, instead of holding a player hostage for multiple years.

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StLunatic88    38

Looking at the Top DT contracts this is what we have;

  • Largest Signing Bonus - $26 million for Fletcher Cox
  • Most Total Guaranteed Money - $36 million for Fletcher Cox
  • Highest Average Annual Salary - $19 million for Ndamukong Suh

If you do just non-QB contracts, it doesnt change much. Cox is still the largest Signing Bonus, Von Miller is the highest annual salary with just a few more thousand than Suh, and the biggest change is Von Miller getting $42 million guaranteed.

So if you want to make him the highest paid non-QB, I am good with that. But there is a limit here. If the contract is 6 years, $120 million with $45 million guaranteed that works great. But if it is much different than that, I can see why this is being held up.

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StLunatic88    38
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

I'm always going to side with the players in these situations in football. Even on my team, as Von Miller should've been paid long before the deadline last year. The injury rate is high and the contracts aren't guaranteed. NTM teams cut players who under perform on contracts all the time, so I don't see why the reserve can't happen.

 

And I despise teams using the franchise tag like you're proposing. If you're not going to pay the guy then trade him or let him go, instead of holding a player hostage for multiple years.

You can side with the players, thats fine. But that doesnt mean I am siding with the owners. I am siding with how Contract Negotiations work. This isnt fantasy land, you cant just pretend that these things dont matter. 

Yes teams cut players, but they arent stealing money from them. They arent taking away money that those players were promised, even though that is the way some would paint the picture as. Every agent knows that this is how NFL contracts work, and honestly it is their fault that some players and many fans didnt know about guaranteed money being the only thing that matters. They wanted to make themselves sound better than they are, so they report the total contract value, instead of actual guaranteed value. This goes back to NFL vs NBA contracts, sure NFL guys can get "fully guaranteed contracts" but they will be for less money and for shorter years, because NFL GMs and Owners are smarter and more restrained than their counter parts in the NBA.

And yes, players have the option to get paid more if they are being underpaid. Donald is taking that avenue right now, but to do so you have to have enough leverage. And having 2 years of a contract left, as well as a team that isnt yet contending for the Super Bowl, and both leverage for the team, not him. And remember, he is playing under the rookie contract system that his NFL Players Association so readily agreed to a few years ago. 

Speaking of that NFLPA, I dont necessarily agree of the current Franchise Tag system. But they continuously keep agreeing to its use in the CBA. And as long as it is a legal negotiation tool to use, I have no problem with the GMs using it to their advantage. Especially since the NFLPA doesnt seem too worried about getting it changed. They are more concerned with less practices and MJ use.

Edited by StLunatic88

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