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JonStark

Aaron Donald's holdout

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Donald isn't going to hold out the whole year he has absolutely nothing to benefit from that. He has very little leverage in this matter to begin with. His agent is somebody known to squeeze everything he can out of negotiations so this could go down to he last minute. Personally I don't agree with holdouts, you signed a contract so honor it. You don't like the way the cab restricts your options? Take it up with your weak union, they're the ones that put you up to this. 

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29 minutes ago, NVRamsFan said:

Donald isn't going to hold out the whole year he has absolutely nothing to benefit from that. He has very little leverage in this matter to begin with. His agent is somebody known to squeeze everything he can out of negotiations so this could go down to he last minute. Personally I don't agree with holdouts, you signed a contract so honor it. You don't like the way the cab restricts your options? Take it up with your weak union, they're the ones that put you up to this. 

Im glad im not the only one who sees this

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3 hours ago, NVRamsFan said:

Donald isn't going to hold out the whole year he has absolutely nothing to benefit from that. He has very little leverage in this matter to begin with. His agent is somebody known to squeeze everything he can out of negotiations so this could go down to he last minute. Personally I don't agree with holdouts, you signed a contract so honor it. You don't like the way the cab restricts your options? Take it up with your weak union, they're the ones that put you up to this. 

Are you against teams cutting players? Teams sign contracts, shouldn't they honor those, too? Or is it only the players that have to do that? The NFL is a business, I don't blame players for trying to make all they can nor do I blame teams for trying to save all they can. I do not like hypocrisy and double standards for one side and not the other, however.

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7 minutes ago, cp0k2 said:

Are you against teams cutting players? Teams sign contracts, shouldn't they honor those, too? Or is it only the players that have to do that? The NFL is a business, I don't blame players for trying to make all they can nor do I blame teams for trying to save all they can. I do not like hypocrisy and double standards for one side and not the other, however.

Except when a team cuts a player, they pay them everything they are guaranteed due, on the spot. 

Its not the same situation, teams would have to be cutting guys and then withholding the monies owed from the rest of the contract. 

I'm not saying it's wrong for players to hold out, but comparing the two is a false equivalency 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, cp0k2 said:

Are you against teams cutting players? Teams sign contracts, shouldn't they honor those, too? Or is it only the players that have to do that? The NFL is a business, I don't blame players for trying to make all they can nor do I blame teams for trying to save all they can. I do not like hypocrisy and double standards for one side and not the other, however.

Like Lunatic said if a team cuts a player before the contract is up they still have to abide by what the contract says. If it has guaranteed money in it that still has to be paid. I get where you're going with this, if you want contracts like you're talking then the union has to push for fully guaranteed contracts. But you have to ask yourself what are you willing to give up to the owners to accomplish that. 

Also don't make the mistake of thinking I don't feel Donald deserves more than his current contract pays him. He just has no leverage with 2 years remaining in his deal.

 

Edited by NVRamsFan

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1 hour ago, NVRamsFan said:

Like Lunatic said if a team cuts a player before the contract is up they still have to abide by what the contract says. If it has guaranteed money in it that still has to be paid. I get where you're going with this, if you want contracts like you're talking then the union has to push for fully guaranteed contracts. But you have to ask yourself what are you willing to give up to the owners to accomplish that. 

Also don't make the mistake of thinking I don't feel Donald deserves more than his current contract pays him. He just has no leverage with 2 years remaining in his deal.

 

If a player holds out, he has to abide by the contract. He gets fined, and he doesn't get paid. I don't think most people understand contracts when they complain about holdouts. Outside of the NFL, you can't force a person to perform personal services even if you have a contract (except in very, very rare circumstances). If they breach the contract, you collect damages (if you can). Fact is that specific performance is almost never awarded as a remedy outside of the real estate context. Basically, you're almost always free to choose to not perform a contract you agreed to and signed. You just have to deal with the consequences.

For example, if you were to refuse to report to your employer, they could simply fire you. The Rams have that same option. But they aren't going to fire Donald because he's too valuable. There's nothing wrong with holding out. If you're valuable enough that a team can't cut you, you have every right to demand more money. You can do the same thing with your employer. If you're valuable enough that they can't let you go, you can certainly demand more money and refuse to work until you're given it.

Also, Donald has a ton of leverage. He's the most important player on this team outside of Goff. 

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Except when a team cuts a player, they pay them everything they are guaranteed due, on the spot. 

Its not the same situation, teams would have to be cutting guys and then withholding the monies owed from the rest of the contract. 

I'm not saying it's wrong for players to hold out, but comparing the two is a false equivalency 

It's the same situation. There are even procedures in the CBA and in contracts for what to do when a player holds out. It's simply part of the negotiation process.

6 hours ago, NVRamsFan said:

Donald isn't going to hold out the whole year he has absolutely nothing to benefit from that. He has very little leverage in this matter to begin with. His agent is somebody known to squeeze everything he can out of negotiations so this could go down to he last minute. Personally I don't agree with holdouts, you signed a contract so honor it. You don't like the way the cab restricts your options? Take it up with your weak union, they're the ones that put you up to this. 

Or you take Option #2. As an elite player, you refuse to pay until you're paid. You use the leverage you have. There's nothing Donald can do about the CBA. It's absolutely silly to demand that a player fix the CBA to get what he deserves. The CBA isn't just for Aaron Donald. The CBA in its current form (with the rookie wage scale) actually may work to accomplish the greater good for the entire collective of NFL players, but it might not accomplish it for Donald. That's why it's perfectly logical for Aaron Donald to hold out and assert the leverage he has (which is actually significantly greater than you're making it seem).

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7 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Remember fellas, Donald is not the only guy we have to pay going forward. Our ACTUAL Free Agents next season look like this;

  • Sammy Watkins
  • Alec Ogletree
  • Trumaine Johnson
  • LaMarcus Joyner
  • John Sullivan
  • Connor Barwin
  • Lance Dunbar
  • Ethan Westbrooks
  • Dominique Easley
  • Cody Davis
  • Nickell Robey-Coleman
  • Jake McQuaide

Now not all of these guys will be paid, most will be replaced by Draft picks and other lesser free agents. but that right there is 7 Starters, and another 5 guys who will be major contributors. Tru, Sullivan and all the other backup/contributors will likely walk, and if we wanted him back Barwin is probably reasonable. But if we have to pay Watkins, Ogletree and Joyner starting in 2018 then we have to budget the money correctly, and tossing $25 million at Donanld to just "pay the man" causes an issue.

Nobody is proposing tossing $25 million at Donald. Give him the richest contract for a defender in NFL history. That's what he's earned. We can figure out how to sign the lesser players after that.

 

8 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Not saying that he is. But that is something you have to guard against. Not necessarily by attitude, but what if some injury happens this year, he rehabs but isnt ever the same (an injury provision in his contract wont cover that) and suddenly in year 3 of a 5 year deal he isnt worth anywhere near the $22m (speculation) you are paying him and owe him for 2 more seasons after that. Like I said, its not as easy as "pay the man", contract negotiations dont work like that, especially in a sport like this.

The yearly dollar amount isnt as important to top end players anymore. With the salary cap, we have mostly maxed out what you can pay a single player and still put together the rest of your roster. So it them comes down to guaranteed money, how much they get up fron in a signing bonus, and how much of the following years you are committed to.

What if he is asking to be paid as the highest Defensive player? (Von Miller just got 6y/$114m+) Thats $19m per year, Fine we pay him $20m per year, we can probably swing that. BUT what if he wants a 7th year, AND he wants to have almost all of it Guaranteed? No GM in good conscience is just going to sign off on that.

What if he just really wants to get paid more these 2 seasons, and isnt really  giving us some long term commitment? Say instead of the 5 or 6 year deal that many are thinking he could sign for $120M+, He is only looking for a 4 year (but still wants $100m) deal because he wants to hit Free Agency again before he turns 30? We already have him under contract for 2 more seasons at like $10m, with 3 more years of team control via Franchise Tag starting at like $18m per for those years.

There are alot of factors, and like I said. we arent a Super Bowl team, so we arent desperate.

You take that risk as part of doing business. Although, we could certainly pay the man and protect ourselves down the line. I doubt that Donald is demanding something as unreasonable as you're claiming (a fully guaranteed (or near fully guaranteed) contract that makes him the richest defensive player in NFL history).

In the second scenario, I say give him the four-year $80 million deal. He's earned it. We can figure out a third contract when the time comes.

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Browns fan here with the obvious wondering aloud: could the Rams choose to play hardball and trade Donald to another team?  If so, what do you think they would reasonably ask/get for a top 5-10 defender in the NFL who is going to have to be paid the most in history?  I know it's not likely that he's traded, but I just thought I'd explore it.  Would trading for someone like Danny Shelton, whom in my opinion is a better fit for the 3-4 and a top-15 DT in the league, and a 1st & two 2nds do it?  I'm not Sashi Brown or anything--just trying to gauge fan opinion of his value.  Thanks, guys.

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10 hours ago, NudeTayne said:

Browns fan here with the obvious wondering aloud: could the Rams choose to play hardball and trade Donald to another team?  If so, what do you think they would reasonably ask/get for a top 5-10 defender in the NFL who is going to have to be paid the most in history?  I know it's not likely that he's traded, but I just thought I'd explore it.  Would trading for someone like Danny Shelton, whom in my opinion is a better fit for the 3-4 and a top-15 DT in the league, and a 1st & two 2nds do it?  I'm not Sashi Brown or anything--just trying to gauge fan opinion of his value.  Thanks, guys.

I don't see a trade happening. We won't be able to get his value to the team back. The Rams have him under control for the next 4 years using the franchise tag and it would be a savings to use it each year. The Rams have a very good offer on the table from reports and a common though among fans is he's being like other players in the past and just holding out for camp to avoid injuries. He'll be back week 1. Keep in mind though for your trade valuation he's now a DE in our 3-4 not sure Shelton can play that role in a Wade Phillips defense. 

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From what I have read, Aaron Donald has still not shown up and it's growing more and more unlikely he will play very much (if at all) vs the Colts on Sunday.  Also, according to ESPN, the fines that Donald has accrued during his holdout are nearly as much as his base salary for the 2017-18 season.  I guess the relevance to that statement is, if Donald comes back and plays with the same contract situation he currently has, he essentially would earn little to no money at this point.

Edited by showtime

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On 8/30/2017 at 10:00 PM, NudeTayne said:

Browns fan here with the obvious wondering aloud: could the Rams choose to play hardball and trade Donald to another team?  If so, what do you think they would reasonably ask/get for a top 5-10 defender in the NFL who is going to have to be paid the most in history?  I know it's not likely that he's traded, but I just thought I'd explore it.  Would trading for someone like Danny Shelton, whom in my opinion is a better fit for the 3-4 and a top-15 DT in the league, and a 1st & two 2nds do it?  I'm not Sashi Brown or anything--just trying to gauge fan opinion of his value.  Thanks, guys.

Not even close.

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On 8/31/2017 at 7:09 AM, NVRamsFan said:

I don't see a trade happening. We won't be able to get his value to the team back. The Rams have him under control for the next 4 years using the franchise tag and it would be a savings to use it each year. The Rams have a very good offer on the table from reports and a common though among fans is he's being like other players in the past and just holding out for camp to avoid injuries. He'll be back week 1. Keep in mind though for your trade valuation he's now a DE in our 3-4 not sure Shelton can play that role in a Wade Phillips defense. 

I don't see one happening either but just exploring.  As far as Shelton, he is known for being able to move very well for his NT size, kinda like Haloti Ngata did; he could play 3-4 DE as well though don't see him likely to play solely DE.  Of course the Rams would rather Donald show up.  This is in the event that he's informed the team that he'll be showing up week 11 to get his accrued season but will be doing the same thing next year as well unless they give him a contract, as he's a top-3 interior lineman already and should be paid as such.  The idea of Shelton/1st/two 2nds was based on him coming with an automatic 5/100 mil or whatever, which would drop his trade value a bit.  

7 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Not even close.

What is close?

Edited by NudeTayne

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Just now, NudeTayne said:

What is close?

I don't want to trade Donald for anything, but assuming we did, I wouldn't settle for less than two firsts and an established player. Donald is arguably the best defensive player in the NFL.

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22 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I don't want to trade Donald for anything, but assuming we did, I wouldn't settle for less than two firsts and an established player. Donald is arguably the best defensive player in the NFL.

*scratches head*  The offer I tossed up as a theoretical is essentially exactly what you "wouldn't settle for less than"; Shelton is very much a young--high first round pick pick as well--established player, and a 1st & two 2nds is roughly the same as two firsts, give or take.  But you said not even close...?  You want Odell Beckham and two firsts? :-D

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1 minute ago, NudeTayne said:

*scratches head*  The offer I tossed up as a theoretical is essentially exactly what you "wouldn't settle for less than"; Shelton is very much a young--high first round pick pick as well--established player, and a 1st & two 2nds is roughly the same as two firsts, give or take.  But you said not even close...?  You want Odell Beckham and two firsts? :-D

I'd want a 2018 1st, a 2019 1st, and a Pro Bowl caliber player at minimum. Shelton is not a Pro Bowl caliber player. For the Browns, Kevin Zeitler would be my target.

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