Let's talk about Taysom Hill and gadget players

[MookieMonstah]

1 minute ago, iknowcool said:

If someone is gonna call him the best utility player in the NFL, I expect more. Simple as that.

Nobody is saying he’s trash. I’m just saying he is nowhere close to being as great as he id made out to be

The issue is, you have a different definition of utility player. I don't consider Ekeler a utility player. He's a HB, he catches the ball better than most HBs but that doesn't make him a utility player. Taysom plays 4-5 positions regularly at a good level, thats what makes him so unique. If you consider guys like Ekeler and Kamara utility players, than yeah sure, Taysom isn't in that league.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

12 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

The issue is, you have a different definition of utility player. I don't consider Ekeler a utility player. He's a HB, he catches the ball better than most HBs but that doesn't make him a utility player. Taysom plays 4-5 positions regularly at a good level, thats what makes him so unique. If you consider guys like Ekeler and Kamara utility players, than yeah sure, Taysom isn't in that league.

I'm trying to figure out in what world guys like Ekeler and Kamara are "utility players". Like, a major part of the RB's job in today's NFL is to catch passes out of the backfield. That doesn't make you a utility player, that makes you....a RB!

[MookieMonstah]

Just now, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I'm trying to figure out in what world guys like Ekeler and Kamara are "utility players". Like, a major part of the RB's job in today's NFL is to catch passes out of the backfield. That doesn't make you a utility player, that makes you....a RB!

Yeah, I agree. If thats how you really want to quantify guys as "utility players" then yeah sure, Taysoms production pales in comparison but...they're not really utility players lol

[iknowcool]

Sure, Taysom Hill is the "best utility player" in the NFL if that is the criteria we're using.  But what exactly is that supposed to mean when he is the only player used in that role?

That's the thing.  Hill isn't the only one capable of playing that role, which has been my main point the entire time.  Sean Payton chooses to use him in that role, and that's cool.  But plenty of guys could be a gunner on a team.  Plenty of guys could line up at fullback.  Plenty of guys could line up at tight end.  Plenty of guys could line up at wide receiver.  And do it as "effectively" as Hill does... which isn't that effective, given his lack of production.

The way Payton uses Hill is unique, but Hill himself isn't unique.  Teams just don't see a lot of value in playing a guy at a myriad of positions.  

That is why I hate the whole "he is the best utility player in the NFL" comment.  It suggests he's got a better skill-set than anyone else in the league when that simply isn't true.  Nobody would even suggest he's a top 100 player in the NFL.  Or top 150 even.  He's never had more than 390 YFS in a season.  Up until Week 8, he had 23 receiving yards and 52 rushing yards and 1 total touchdown.  Like... the dude barely produces.  And yet, you are telling me because he lines up at multiple positions, that is supposed to sell me on him being the best utility player in the NFL or something?

Come on now.  Payton does a great job moving Hill around.  He finds a way to get a great athlete on the field.  Kudos to Payton.  But I'm sorry if I don't care that he plays gunner, something damn near any starting WR or RB could do.  And wanna know why they don't?  Because there is no major value in it.  

That is why this debate is so frustrating.  It's like we're setting aside his complete lack of production all because he lines up at different positions.  He comes in for a couple of plays a game to run some read-option (hence the higher YPC - there is a reason QBs almost always have a higher YPC than their RB counterpart, not to mention Hill has only ran the ball 44 times).  Rarely does he throw, yet somehow I'm supposed to give him credit for lining up at QB for... reasons.  

I'll say this.  He's a great weapon to use in the red-zone.  He comes in and feasts on plays designed for him.  Again, a credit to Payton and his utilization of a great athlete.  But ya'll give way too much credit to someone who just doesn't produce that much.  Why should I consider him better than Curtis Samuel, for example, who has over 200 more YFS this season and total touchdowns?  Because he lines up at more positions?  I mean really, what does Taysom Hill do better than Curtis Samuel?  If Samuel played gunner, would he then be the best utility player in the NFL?

I don't hate Tayson Hill.  His hype is just annoying.  And it makes it seem like Taysom Hill is the only player capable of doing what he's doing (which, again, isn't that much if you actually care about results).  Coaches just don't find it worth playing someone at that many positions.  And the only reason why the Saints do it with Hill is because he's a back-up.  

So yeah.  I guess he's the best utility player in the NFL.  But it means nothing and really isn't that impressive.  I really couldn't care less that he plays gunner.  I'm sure Cam Newton could have played gunner too.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by iknowcool

[iknowcool]

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

This post was only related to his athleticism. Also, I don't consider Ekeler a "utility" player...He's a pass catching HB. I'm not sure how that qualifies him as a utility guy.

Taysom has played snaps at QB, FB, TE, WR, gunner, KR, PR.... He's obviously doing something right, your own team wanted Tommy Stevens for the same role.

 

The only thing I took from this is that for being the best utility player in the NFL, Taysom Hill sure doesn't get many snaps on offense.  

So again, it comes down to me having to be impressed all because he lines up at a lot of different spots when he does actually see the field.  Because let's be honest. I seriously doubt you have sat down and been like, "damn Taysom Hill just threw a good block on kick return."  Like what is him playing 65 snaps on kick return supposed to tell me?  

[MookieMonstah]

25 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Sure, Taysom Hill is the "best utility player" in the NFL if that is the criteria we're using.  But what exactly is that supposed to mean when he is the only player used in that role?

That's the thing.  Hill isn't the only one capable of playing that role, which has been my main point the entire time.  Sean Payton chooses to use him in that role, and that's cool.  But plenty of guys could be a gunner on a team.  Plenty of guys could line up at fullback.  Plenty of guys could line up at tight end.  Plenty of guys could line up at wide receiver.  And do it as "effectively" as Hill does... which isn't that effective, given his lack of production.

The way Payton uses Hill is unique, but Hill himself isn't unique.  Teams just don't see a lot of value in playing a guy at a myriad of positions.  

That is why I hate the whole "he is the best utility player in the NFL" comment.  It suggests he's got a better skill-set than anyone else in the league when that simply isn't true.  Nobody would even suggest he's a top 100 player in the NFL.  Or top 150 even.  He's never had more than 390 YFS in a season.  Up until Week 8, he had 23 receiving yards and 52 rushing yards and 1 total touchdown.  Like... the dude barely produces.  And yet, you are telling me because he lines up at multiple positions, that is supposed to sell me on him being the best utility player in the NFL or something?

Come on now.  Payton does a great job moving Hill around.  He finds a way to get a great athlete on the field.  Kudos to Payton.  But I'm sorry if I don't care that he plays gunner, something damn near any starting WR or RB could do.  And wanna know why they don't?  Because there is no major value in it.  

That is why this debate is so frustrating.  It's like we're setting aside his complete lack of production all because he lines up at different positions.  He comes in for a couple of plays a game to run some read-option (hence the higher YPC - there is a reason QBs almost always have a higher YPC than their RB counterpart, not to mention Hill has only ran the ball 44 times).  Rarely does he throw, yet somehow I'm supposed to give him credit for lining up at QB for... reasons.  

I'll say this.  He's a great weapon to use in the red-zone.  He comes in and feasts on plays designed for him.  Again, a credit to Payton and his utilization of a great athlete.  But ya'll give way too much credit to someone who just doesn't produce that much.  Why should I consider him better than Curtis Samuel, for example, who has over 200 more YFS this season and total touchdowns?  Because he lines up at more positions?  I mean really, what does Taysom Hill do better than Curtis Samuel?  If Samuel played gunner, would he then be the best utility player in the NFL?

I don't hate Tayson Hill.  His hype is just annoying.  And it makes it seem like Taysom Hill is the only player capable of doing what he's doing (which, again, isn't that much if you actually care about results).  Coaches just don't find it worth playing someone at that many positions.  And the only reason why the Saints do it with Hill is because he's a back-up.  

So yeah.  I guess he's the best utility player in the NFL.  But it means nothing and really isn't that impressive.  I really couldn't care less that he plays gunner.  I'm sure Cam Newton could have played gunner too.  

You went through that long winded post just to admit in the end that Taysom is good in his role. You could’ve saved yourself a lot of time. Taysom is a unique player in a unique role and people like him, I don’t know why that’s so annoying to you. It’s also incredibly useful because it saves the Saints multiple roster spots tbh. He also looks like he could be a decent starting QB so I’m not sure what else to say. He has a useful role on a very good team. No one has called him a top 100 player, just cool to see a QB blocking punts. Just enjoy it lol

[iknowcool]

6 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

You went through that long winded post just to admit in the end that Taysom is good in his role. You could’ve saved yourself a lot of time. Taysom is a unique player in a unique role and people like him, I don’t know why that’s so annoying to you. It’s also incredibly useful because it saves the Saints multiple roster spots tbh. He also looks like he could be a decent starting QB so I’m not sure what else to say. He has a useful role on a very good team. No one has called him a top 100 player, just cool to see a QB blocking punts. Just enjoy it lol

Lol is the point of a football forum not to discuss football and share our opinions?  You responded to a post where I disagreed with the assertion that Taysom Hill was the best utility player in the NFL.  You seemed to disagree with the fact that I felt he wasn't as good as he is being made out to be, and posted a chart that I guess was supposed to prove that he was.  And so I posted a response explaining my stance that took me maybe 4 minutes to type.  

But I agree with you (although I still doubt he can be a decent starting QB).  He plays a useful role on a very good team.  I think that is the perfect way to describe what he does.  I've never said he was bad, just that he doesn't really accomplish as much as people make it seem.  Nothing wrong with that.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by iknowcool

[tyler735]

I would just note his impact much like Kamara's goes beyond stats. Having those 2 guys with so much versatility has to be an absolute headache to gameplan for opposing teams, which I have seen noted by several coaches when they talk about playing the Saints. Nobody is saying Taysom is an all pro player, but his impact on the field has certainly shown to change games for us. If he shows he can be more of a threat passing the ball in his next few games that will only make him more dangerous once Brees comes back later this season. Sean Payton could really have some fun with this come playoff time. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by tyler735

[MookieMonstah]

21 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Lol is the point of a football forum not to discuss football and share our opinions?  You responded to a post where I disagreed with the assertion that Taysom Hill was the best utility player in the NFL.  You seemed to disagree with the fact that I felt he wasn't as good as he is being made out to be, and posted a chart that I guess was supposed to prove that he was.  And so I posted a response explaining my stance that took me maybe 4 minutes to type.  

But I agree with you (although I still doubt he can be a decent starting QB).  He plays a useful role on a very good team.  I think that is the perfect way to describe what he does.  I've never said he was bad, just that he doesn't really accomplish as much as people make it seem.  Nothing wrong with that.  

I was more-so responding to the overrated athleticism piece. Guy's pro-day puts him on par with some of the better WRs in the league, he's a pretty freaky athlete. The biggest thing with Taysom, which numerous Defensive Coordinators have attested to, is that he's a nightmare to game plan for. You have to spy/stack the box when he comes in which you saw with a lot of teams going cover 0 but then he can pull it back and beat you with a deep ball which we've seen numerous times. He's not an easy guy to defend when he comes in. 

I was actually expecting the Saints to run a lot more RPO and wild cat type stuff with Taysom but it didn't happen. Wonder if Payton is saving it for the Chiefs.

[scar988]

As a passer, Hill wasn't anything special this past week. He just followed the game plan. The special things he did wasn't when he threw, but when he evaded pressure that was right in his face to get the ball away. Saints got away with a ton of holding calls too. Frustrating game to watch.

[Dome]

57 minutes ago, scar988 said:

As a passer, Hill wasn't anything special this past week. He just followed the game plan. The special things he did wasn't when he threw, but when he evaded pressure that was right in his face to get the ball away. Saints got away with a ton of holding calls too. Frustrating game to watch.

I have never been impressed with Hill as a passer past about 10 yards, but lots of our game plan is short passing like you said. His deep balls werent good except one downhill throw to Thomas. 
 

I was impressed though like you said with his poise in the pocket, I thought he’d be a lot more gunshy and would’ve run 20+ times over the game 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Dome

[MookieMonstah]

3 hours ago, scar988 said:

As a passer, Hill wasn't anything special this past week. He just followed the game plan. The special things he did wasn't when he threw, but when he evaded pressure that was right in his face to get the ball away. Saints got away with a ton of holding calls too. Frustrating game to watch.

I feel like teams with scrambling QBs tend to get away with more holding calls 

[sammymvpknight]

3 hours ago, scar988 said:

As a passer, Hill wasn't anything special this past week. He just followed the game plan. The special things he did wasn't when he threw, but when he evaded pressure that was right in his face to get the ball away. Saints got away with a ton of holding calls too. Frustrating game to watch.

Hill didn't look phenomenal yesterday, but he was pretty darn good in the 2nd half when he settled down (though he needs to be careful with the backside pursuit, and fumble). And his running ability is definitely good. He's essentially Josh Allen and Cam Newton out there. When it's 3rd-and-1 or 2, that's pretty much a first down. That's INCREDIBLY valuable for moving the chains. If the Saints defense continues to play well and they avoid down and distance...Taysom Hill can have a ton of success in this offense. I don't know if he'd be a great fit for every team...but in his current set of circumstances, he can definitely be a winning starting QB. 

 

[Sugashane]

9 hours ago, Raves said:

Saints will need a new back-up QB next year....

I'd like to see Tru go to learn under Shannahan, Payton, Kingsbury, or Reid. Someone who can hopefully develop him. I dont hold any I'll will towards him, he regressed each year and I blame that primarily on Nagy, since he hasnt even been able to install an offensive system in 3 years. 

Personally, even with the cap hell NO seems to be heading to (honestly I havent looked in depth so I may be way off there) I think Payton has the inside edge with keeping Hill though if he really wants Hill to be the franchise QB. It wouldnt be hard to structure the deal to make him count only a small bit against the cap in 2021 while still giving him a solid payday. He could do a 3 year, $50 million deal with something like $30 mil guaranteed, then put the cap hits at 8/14/26. He gets half the guaranteed cap up front so he will cash in $23 mil in 2021 while only counting for 8 against the cap. Brees has up to 2 years to be done and then Hill and NO can restructure and extend before he has thr $26 million cap hit.

Hill is already in his last 5-8 years and knows the system, no reason to go somewhere else when he is happy with where he is at and where he obviously can be used best. Allows Payton to focus resources around the QB too. Seems like a win-win.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Sugashane

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I'd like to see Tru go to learn under Shannahan, Payton, Kingsbury, or Reid. Someone who can hopefully develop him. I dont hold any I'll will towards him, he regressed each year and I blame that primarily on Nagy, since he hasnt even been able to install an offensive system in 3 years. 

Personally, even with the cap hell NO seems to be heading to (honestly I havent looked in depth so I may be way off there) I think Payton has the inside edge with keeping Hill though. It wouldnt be hard to structure the deal to make him count only a small bit against the cap in 2021 while still giving him a solid payday. He could do a 3 year, $50 million deal with something like $30 mil guaranteed, then put the cap hits at 8/14/26. He gets half the guaranteed cap up front so he will cash in $23 mil in 2021 while only counting for 8 against the cap. Brees has up to 2 years to be done and then Hill and NO can restructure and extend before he has thr $26 million cap hit.

Hill is already in his last 5-8 years and knows the system, no reason to go somewhere else when he is happy with where he is at and where he obviously can be used best. Allows Payton to focus resources around the QB too. Seems like a win-win.

The cap is just an imaginary number with the Saints.  No matter how much they are supposedly in the red each year they always seem to find a way to bring in new FAs or extend people after making a bunch of restructures etc.