Is that the light at the end of the tunnel? (O.T. Thread)

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Did you expect me to argue this? Or, should I welcome you?

oh I’m still pro big government, just not that bit lol 

6 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

That entire darned "representative democracy" piece makes it impossible, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Sure, even keep the geographic integrity of the Anti-Federalists and allow localities to have some specific say on some local and state level issues, while doing this federally for everyone.

so change it.  I just hate the idea of “we can’t do x because of y” when “y” is a controllable variable.  

6 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I'm not quite there but your point remains. Yep, we are all veterans at this point who meet the 35 year old threshold to run for President if we wanted. 

If someone can show me a way to make this happen then sign me up. I'm talking more baby steps here.

My entire point is that you have my above example as a simple "starting point", you then agree on that in theory, and then sit down and iron out/negotiate the finer points and details, giving/conceding and getting/winning a few things along the way for your respective ideology.

We agree on a lot and we disagree on a lot, but I'd wager you and I could sit down and hammer out 80-90% of a solution on a lot of this that's both better for those individuals and saves this country and your local tax payers (not the guys you're talking about) a good chunk of change as well, as opposed to "running it back" again and again every few years.

I don’t think most political care about fixing things, they’re there to line their pockets, plain and simple.  As you said, we can’t even get a goddam bill about daylight savings passed ffs.

we’ve got dozens of train wrecks (literally and figuratively) happening and congress collectively throws their hands up befuddled as they head to break or some campaign fundraiser or to meet with lobbyists. 

3 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Even though I'm anti-loan forgiveness, I'm pro loan forgiveness in terms of qualifying for things like working x years in a lower income area/for the government in exchange for as much.

For example, the federal government will forgive up to $35K in student loans with 3 years of service. I'm 100% in favor of this type of incentive program. Should you walk away before that 3 year, you have to repay at a prorated amount the remaining balance back. That's fair IMO.

We’re a country that is outstanding at letting perfect be the enemy of good/better.  Not every solution needs to solve every problem or be flawless, it just had to be better than what we have.  This would be that.

The other thing related to this is we’re short sighted.  “I’m not paying for people to go to school to be doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, etc” - person who is going to need doctors, teachers, nurses engineers, etc.  

I mean, we have a notable physician shortage in this country, a profession that’s just about as necessary as it gets and it’s like people can’t figure out why. “Sure pal, just go ahead and take out a couple hundred thousand in loans, work your *** off until you’re in your early 30’s for peanuts and then you’ll start making good money so you can pay back all the loans you accumulated.”
 

Then that same person wonders why they can’t find a psychiatrist that can see them this year or why it takes 2 months to schedule an annual physical.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

While we’re going all off topic, I think it needs to be said. 
 

As a dude with half a dozen or so guns on the wall directly behind me, most of which are ARs, it’s the guns and the nearly unrestricted access to them.  At some point folks are going to have to face that reality.

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

oh I’m still pro big government, just not that bit lol 

That's okay, nobody is perfect  

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

so change it.  I just hate the idea of “we can’t do x because of y” when “y” is a controllable variable.  

A 28th Amendment essentially getting rid of an entire Article and various sections of the Constitution would make me happy and it would be hilariously ironic.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I don’t think most political care about fixing things, they’re there to line their pockets, plain and simple.  As you said, we can’t even get a goddam bill about daylight savings passed ffs.

Oh yeah 100%. Plus, power as well.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

we’ve got dozens of train wrecks (literally and figuratively) happening and congress collectively throws their hands up befuddled as they head to break or some campaign fundraiser or to meet with lobbyists. 

I mean, they don't care because it doesn't impact them, their community, or their drinking water or their children. You know what it's going to take for there to be meaningful and lasting change to school shootings in this country? Some politician's kid being a victim. I really hope I'm wrong on that, but I don't think that I am unfortunately.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

We’re a country that is outstanding at letting perfect be the enemy of good/better.  Not every solution needs to solve every problem or be flawless, it just had to be better than what we have.  This would be that

I think you hit the nail on the head with this exact quote/phrase.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The other thing related to this is we’re short sighted.  “I’m not paying for people to go to school to be doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, etc” - person who is going to need doctors, teachers, nurses engineers, etc.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureaucrats-and-buildings-the-case-for-why-college-is-so-expensive/?sh=2e55ff98456a

Quote

 

More administrators, fewer answers

During the 1980-1981 school year, public and private institutions spent $20.7 billion in total on instruction, and $13 billion on academic support, student services and institutional support combined, according to data from the National Center for Educational Statistics. By the 2014-2015 school year, total instructional costs had climbed to $148 billion, while the same grouping of administrative expenses had risen to $122.3 billion.

Put another way, administrative spending comprised just 26% of total educational spending by American colleges in 1980-1981, while instructional spending comprised 41%. Three decades later, the two categories were almost even: administrative spending made up 24% of schools’ total expenditures, while instructional spending made up 29%.

 

This is the most undeniable part of the indictment of rising college tuition costs.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I mean, we have a notable physician shortage in this country, a profession that’s just about as necessary as it gets and it’s like people can’t figure out why. “Sure pal, just go ahead and take out a couple hundred thousand in loans, work your *** off until you’re in your early 30’s for peanuts and then you’ll start making good money so you can pay back all the loans you accumulated.”

I think a lot of people in our generation have found there are infinitely easier ways to make good money and have infinitely better work/life balances as well. You didn't even mention the working 16-18 hour days portions, the putting your wife/having kids portions on hold, the divorces, the whatever else that comes at a cost to get to those points, etc.

4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Then that same person wonders why they can’t find a psychiatrist that can see them this year or why it takes 2 months to schedule an annual physical.

Or why you have to wait 45 minutes for your physical because your provider intentionally overbooks...or why you barely get to speak to your doctor since the system is predicated on a restaurant model to get more people in and out as fast as possible.

[candyman93]

Letsgo said it best about banks and the FED. You’ve got only 1 option if you want them to stop doing economically dangerous thing- Make banks a utility.

 

However, doing that means less startups and businesses worth taking a risk on.

[MWil23]

7 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

While we’re going all off topic, I think it needs to be said. 
 

As a dude with half a dozen or so guns on the wall directly behind me, most of which are ARs, it’s the guns and the nearly unrestricted access to them.  At some point folks are going to have to face that reality.

IMO it's a shame you can't sue gun manufacturers. I also firmly believe that certain minor law things need drastic change, where essentially you can be flagged as having major deviant and aggressive behavior/crime that "goes away" and won't get flagged on a lot of these checks.

And quite frankly, if that minor lives under your roof, you should in no way/shape/form have access to a firearm, period. You give up that right altogether IMO.

I know I will/would if that time ever came/comes for me.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean, they don't care because it doesn't impact them, their community, or their drinking water or their children. You know what it's going to take for there to be meaningful and lasting change to school shootings in this country? Some politician's kid being a victim. I really hope I'm wrong on that, but I don't think that I am unfortunately.

Idk man.  One of them got shot it and it didn’t move the needle.

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I think you hit the nail on the head with this exact quote/phrase.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureaucrats-and-buildings-the-case-for-why-college-is-so-expensive/?sh=2e55ff98456a

This is the most undeniable part of the indictment of rising college tuition costs.

unreal…

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I think a lot of people in our generation have found there are infinitely easier ways to make good money and have infinitely better work/life balances as well. You didn't even mention the working 16-18 hour days portions, the putting your wife/having kids portions on hold, the divorces, the whatever else that comes at a cost to get to those points, etc.

exactly.  It’s a hard af job that doesn’t provide a great quality of life for a while.  Like you said, there are easier options.

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Or why you have to wait 45 minutes for your physical because your provider intentionally overbooks...or why you barely get to speak to your doctor since the system is predicated on a restaurant model to get more people in and out as fast as possible.

It’s not the provider btw, it’s the corporation that owns the practice.  They’re the ones setting the 15-20 min appts for olds with 10k questions.  Money and healthcare don’t mix in my experience.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

20 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

Letsgo said it best about damned near everything. You’ve got only 1 option if you want them to stop doing economically dangerous thing- Make damned near everything a utility.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

11 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

IMO it's a shame you can't sue gun manufacturers. I also firmly believe that certain minor law things need drastic change, where essentially you can be flagged as having major deviant and aggressive behavior/crime that "goes away" and won't get flagged on a lot of these checks.

And quite frankly, if that minor lives under your roof, you should in no way/shape/form have access to a firearm, period. You give up that right altogether IMO.

I know I will/would if that time ever came/comes for me.

Universal background check, gun registration, mag capacity limits, etc as well.

Ive heard and understand the arguments against these things.  Imo they just don’t stack up compared to the damage we’re seeing on what seems like a daily basis now.

And the red flag stuff really only works when you have an adequate database for this stuff.

[MWil23]

12 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It’s not the provider btw, it’s the corporation that owns the practice.  They’re the ones setting the 15-20 min appts for olds with 10k questions.  Money and healthcare don’t mix in my experience.

Yeah my bad, I actually meant the corporation

[Dawgpoun8017]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

While we’re going all off topic, I think it needs to be said. 
 

As a dude with half a dozen or so guns on the wall directly behind me, most of which are ARs, it’s the guns and the nearly unrestricted access to them.  At some point folks are going to have to face that reality.

The only problem I have with this is, the people who are going to do bad terrible things with guns, are going to find a way to get them..... there are countless illegal ways for people to get ahold of them. I cant ell you how many criminal possession a a weapons charges I see when I am at work, and 9 out of 10 when I ask the inmate about it, the answer is I went to Rochester or Syracuse and bought it off the street, I am seeing a greater increase in Ghost gun charges come in.  I own 3 pistols and due to the nature of my work I am always carrying, I am not necessarily against gun control, I just dont believe you will ever control the illegal gun market

[candyman93]

30 minutes ago, Dawgpoun8017 said:

The only problem I have with this is, the people who are going to do bad terrible things with guns, are going to find a way to get them..... there are countless illegal ways for people to get ahold of them. I cant ell you how many criminal possession a a weapons charges I see when I am at work, and 9 out of 10 when I ask the inmate about it, the answer is I went to Rochester or Syracuse and bought it off the street, I am seeing a greater increase in Ghost gun charges come in.  I own 3 pistols and due to the nature of my work I am always carrying, I am not necessarily against gun control, I just dont believe you will ever control the illegal gun market

I understand what you’re saying, but we also have drug laws. People will always get drugs.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

29 minutes ago, Dawgpoun8017 said:

The only problem I have with this is, the people who are going to do bad terrible things with guns, are going to find a way to get them..... there are countless illegal ways for people to get ahold of them. I cant ell you how many criminal possession a a weapons charges I see when I am at work, and 9 out of 10 when I ask the inmate about it, the answer is I went to Rochester or Syracuse and bought it off the street, I am seeing a greater increase in Ghost gun charges come in.  I own 3 pistols and due to the nature of my work I am always carrying, I am not necessarily against gun control, I just dont believe you will ever control the illegal gun market

I think this is true, but also by saying “well X regulation wouldn’t have stopped someone in Y situation” you’re allowing perfect to again be the enemy of better.  
 

Here’s the reality.  We have the most lax gun laws in the world and this is pretty much the only place on the developed world where mass shooting happen regularly.  It’s the guns, hard stop.

That said, we have the second amendment. Part of that amendment is “well regulated” which I don’t think even the most enthusiastic gun supporters could really say describes our situation. You can literally go meet up with a dude in the Walmart parking lot, show them your ID and buy a gun lol.
 

I’m not anti gun by any means, I conceal carry and own plenty of guns, but at some point people need to wake tf and realize we’re allowing this to happen because a perfect answer doesn’t exist or because of logical fallacies like slippery slopes. Maybe universal background checks or increasing the age to purchase doesn’t prevent the last shooting, but it may prevent the next. 
 

To your point about criminals always getting them, probably.  I think the point is most of these people aren’t criminals until they decide to do this stuff.  It’s the easy access to guns for people who probably don’t have connections to illegal arms dealers or whatever that’s the issue for a majority of these situations.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

As far as people selling illegal guns, single parent homes, video games, mental health, violence on television, whatever, the rest of the developed world has all of those things too.   Well maybe not the absurdly lacking access to mental healthcare, but the rest of it and this stuff doesn’t happen nearly as often there.  
 

And even if conservatives feel it is mental health or whatever, cool.  I’m assuming the solution they’re proposing is increased funding for access to mental healthcare?  Nah, none of that.  No solutions at all.  Deflecting to stuff like door locks and sending thoughts and prayers is the best they can do. Like, why are they here?  What are they doing?  Their sole job is suppose to be passing legislation to improve the country.  Instead they’re wearing AR pins on their lapel to show their support to gun nuts immediately after a mass shooting and I’m to pretend this particular issue is a “both sides” problem?  Idk man….  There seems to be an awful lot of reasonable stuff we could be doing before we get to anything close to infringement.

[MWil23]

20 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

As far as people selling illegal guns, single parent homes, video games, mental health, violence on television, whatever, the rest of the developed world has all of those things too.   Well maybe not the absurdly lacking access to mental healthcare, but the rest of it and this stuff doesn’t happen nearly as often there.  
 

And even if conservatives feel it is mental health or whatever, cool.  I’m assuming the solution they’re proposing is increased funding for access to mental healthcare?  Nah, none of that.  No solutions at all.  Deflecting to stuff like door locks and sending thoughts and prayers is the best they can do. Like, why are they here?  What are they doing?  Their sole job is suppose to be passing legislation to improve the country.  Instead they’re wearing AR pins on their lapel to show their support to gun nuts immediately after a mass shooting and I’m to pretend this particular issue is a “both sides” problem?  Idk man….  There seems to be an awful lot of reasonable stuff we could be doing before we get to anything close to infringement.

Not disagreeing with any of that, it's valid. You know what else is valid? Having a metal detector in literally every single school with, you know, doors that actually lock appropriately too. That would be a nice "better not perfect" measure than we have now, which is jumping to other gun related issues, which, to your point, you can see a very strong case for needing to happen at least in some capacity (well regulated).

It doesn't have to be AR lapel pins or "ban assault style weapon" Stone Cold vs. The Rock Congressional promos either.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

29 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

I understand what you’re saying, but we also have drug laws. People will always get drugs.

Down another rabbit hole lol

We get drugs wrong too imo (shocked, I’m sure)

Punishing people for what ranges from a hobby (weed) to a life threatening addiction is an incredible waste of resources imo.  Legalize, regulate, and tax iyam.  Things like heroin and such are a whole lot safer if there’s a known quality/quantity.  Make injection sites accessible.  There’s an opportunity for outreach for quitting and staff to prevent ODs and for needle exchanges.

Theses could seemingly be easily funded with the money being saved on EMS calls, prison space, ER visits, etc. paired with what’s gained through taxes. I’d expect an enormous surplus of cash tbh.

Or we can just deep doing the “moar police and tougher love” thing that’s failed miserably for decades.  I’m sure next year will be different….