What Can Brown Do For You? (Hopefully Lose This Time) Week 8 : Steelers host Browns

[CKSteeler]

I think the only thing we're really seeing is that Bell wasn't the incredible talent people made him out to be. Leveon Bell wasn't Bell coming out of college. He wasn't even that as a rookie. His "patience" isn't what really made him great. Good blocking and a dangerous passing attack helped a lot. Bell is going to learn that the hard way. Losing a good bit of weight, which is one thing the Steelers coaching staff deserves credit for, was a big factor, as well. And they did the same thing with Conner.

A lot of us just really have to eat crow with Conner. He was not some feel good story, but a guy that with time + some form of coaching became a good player. Come to think of it, a lot Steelers fans didn't even like the Bell pick...I'm as guilty as anyone here on both counts.

[Chieferific]

20 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

I think the only thing we're really seeing is that Bell wasn't the incredible talent people made him out to be. Leveon Bell wasn't Bell coming out of college. He wasn't even that as a rookie. His "patience" isn't what really made him great. Good blocking and a dangerous passing attack helped a lot. Bell is going to learn that the hard way. Losing a good bit of weight, which is one thing the Steelers coaching staff deserves credit for, was a big factor, as well. And they did the same thing with Conner.

A lot of us just really have to eat crow with Conner. He was not some feel good story, but a guy that with time + some form of coaching became a good player. Come to think of it, a lot Steelers fans didn't even like the Bell pick...I'm as guilty as anyone here on both counts.

Agree completely. As I've humbly stated before, I thought Eddie Lacy was the better fit and that Connor was drafted mostly as a "Feel Good" story. Drastically wrong on both accounts. Connor really looks explosive this year. He is playing the way he was his Sophomore year.  After 3 years of so-so play, I didn't think he'd get that back. I DO think the OL and Munchak have much (if not most) to do with the success of both backs.

[Ward4HOF]

12 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

 I never said you couldn't compare them... Just that you can't compare their statistical achievements without context.

Sure...but how many people compare players on this site...then say..."considering context, of course."  That's a given, is my point...of course there is context; there is context in every comparison ever made between two players...

But regardless, I am not arguing the 'context' of your point, lol.  I do agree, of course, that things have changed since last season, and yes, of course, Conner is being afforded more opportunities at the goal line.  But his two TDs on Sunday (22yds and 12yds), obviously, were not of the goal line variety.

Bottom line--Conner is getting it done, and in large part, due to scheme/excellent OL blocking, which is what Bell also enjoyed...which is my whole point; Bell was/is not as good as his numbers indicate, and we will see this when he goes to another team. Of course he wants to stay on the Steelers...he knows...but sorry, bub...can't have your cake and eat it, too!

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Ward4HOF said:

Sure...but how many people compare players on this site...then say..."considering context, of course."  That's a given, is my point...of course there is context; there is context in every comparison ever made between two players...

But regardless, I am not arguing the 'context' of your point, lol.  I do agree, of course, that things have changed since last season, and yes, of course, Conner is being afforded more opportunities at the goal line.  But his two TDs on Sunday (22yds and 12yds), obviously, were not of the goal line variety.

Bottom line--Conner is getting it done, and in large part, due to scheme/excellent OL blocking, which is what Bell also enjoyed...which is my whole point; Bell was/is not as good as his numbers indicate, and we will see this when he goes to another team. Of course he wants to stay on the Steelers...he knows...but sorry, bub...can't have your cake and eat it, too!

I do want to jump in on this and add my $0.02 on it:

I think the other reason Conner has more rushing TD's than Bell at this same point isn't just opportunity, it's how he runs!  Bell's style is terrible for goal line situations where he sits and waits.  You got 10-11 guys in the box, and only 8-9 to block them.  When you are on the goal line you got to go through, over, or under someone.  Pure and simple math.  Bell's style leads to missed rushing TD's.  Conner on the other hand is a downhill runner who hits a hole and hits it hard.  His style of running is better for the red zone because he salivates on that extra guy being there to punish for being in his way.  It's why I called for Conner to be the goal line back last year too.

So this touchdown discrepancy isn't just about opportunity.  It's that Conner is forcing the Steelers to run it down there because his style of running is built for that type of play.

And no one really talks about this.  Conner's style of running is having a better effect on our offense than Bell+Bryant did.  Conner is forcing 8 man boxes, safeties to drop in, play actions making the LB's step up.  It's why Ben is feasting on routes he used to struggle with.  Conner is forcing defenses to play completely different than usual against our offense.  And it was always my biggest frustration with Bell despite how good he is.  His style of play strings a defense out sideline to sideline, but it doesn't create separation in levels to create bigger holes.  Conner does that.

[Ward4HOF]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I do want to jump in on this and add my $0.02 on it:

I think the other reason Conner has more rushing TD's than Bell at this same point isn't just opportunity, it's how he runs!  Bell's style is terrible for goal line situations where he sits and waits.  You got 10-11 guys in the box, and only 8-9 to block them.  When you are on the goal line you got to go through, over, or under someone.  Pure and simple math.  Bell's style leads to missed rushing TD's.  Conner on the other hand is a downhill runner who hits a hole and hits it hard.  His style of running is better for the red zone because he salivates on that extra guy being there to punish for being in his way.  It's why I called for Conner to be the goal line back last year too.

So this touchdown discrepancy isn't just about opportunity.  It's that Conner is forcing the Steelers to run it down there because his style of running is built for that type of play.

And no one really talks about this.  Conner's style of running is having a better effect on our offense than Bell+Bryant did.  Conner is forcing 8 man boxes, safeties to drop in, play actions making the LB's step up.  It's why Ben is feasting on routes he used to struggle with.  Conner is forcing defenses to play completely different than usual against our offense.  And it was always my biggest frustration with Bell despite how good he is.  His style of play strings a defense out sideline to sideline, but it doesn't create separation in levels to create bigger holes.  Conner does that.

All very salient points. If opposing DCs are worried about Bell as a Receiver, yet at the same time, know his running style is one that is a 'delayed-action' move...even if only 1/2 a second, that's enough to collapse the box after recognition of a rush play vs pass play.  But with Conner, and his 'one-cut and go' style, DCs have to respect that, allowing better spacing for our receivers.

Conner really may be what the Dr. ordered...providing he 'shores-up' his minor fumble issues.  I don't know what can be done with Bell at this point...I really don't.  I do not follow close enough to know all the intricacies of what can and cannot take place in respect the Bell, but at the end of the day, this is Conner's team now, and any reversion back to Bell, for any reason will be detrimental to this team. 

- Conner has been here--week in and week out

- Conner just set a Steeler record for combined ydg/TDs in games, and he has four total 100yd/2TD gms this season

- Conner is $15-$16M cheaper than Bell will be next season.

If Bell comes back, he needs to be placed in a 3rd Dn Back role; I don't care anymore about what he wants, or what we can get from him.  What message are we sending Conner if we allow Bell to come back and just resume his role as Starting RB for this team? What message are 'we' sending players for future negotiations?

"Sure, X player, go ahead and hold the team hostage for as many as 10 weeks...whatever works, for YOU.  Nevermind that we have to game-plan for your absence, deal with the media questions, week after week, etc.  Just come on back when it feels right for YOU, and we'll slide you right back into your starting role, because, hey, we're in this together right?  And heck, you said you want to be a Steeler for your career...all we have to do is capitulate to your demands, make sacrifices with cutting other players, or their salaries, to accommodate your demands...it's all good. Then, in the off-season, we'll overpay for your services, guaranteed for 4 years, and when your body breaks down in year 2, and we don't have the money to sign a worthwhile replacement, because, well, we 'screwed' the guy that was already playing as well, if not better than you during your absence, and he's now gone, making plays for another team."

Because that is how that ends up...make no mistake.  I say, if it's legal, we do NOT let this clown back, and just eat our losses at this point.  So what, we don't get a really late 3rd Rd pick as compensation...I really don't care at this juncture.

 

Sorry...I went off the reservation again...please forgive me...

[skywlker32]

10 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

I think the only thing we're really seeing is that Bell wasn't the incredible talent people made him out to be. Leveon Bell wasn't Bell coming out of college. He wasn't even that as a rookie. His "patience" isn't what really made him great. Good blocking and a dangerous passing attack helped a lot. Bell is going to learn that the hard way. Losing a good bit of weight, which is one thing the Steelers coaching staff deserves credit for, was a big factor, as well. And they did the same thing with Conner.

A lot of us just really have to eat crow with Conner. He was not some feel good story, but a guy that with time + some form of coaching became a good player. Come to think of it, a lot Steelers fans didn't even like the Bell pick...I'm as guilty as anyone here on both counts.

I think a lot of people were missing that, while Conner was recovered from cancer treatments to the level of a normal person maybe, he was not up to his normal athletic abilities until at least part way through his rookie year I would guess. He went into his senior year without much of an offseason from what I remember. That left an offseason in the pros and some time into the season to get back to FULL strength and that is not much time to turn things around from where he came from with the treatments.

[VigilantZombie]

I'll be honest, i dont remember what i said last year about Conner. But if i ever doubted him, i'll gladly take a platter of crow. He is gonna be a star here for a long time. He exhibits traits that Bettis had, who we were able to win SBs with, yes ik, different time, different defense, but my point his he is gonna be a vital part of this team for the forseeable future. 

[MOSteelers56]

39 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I'll be honest, i dont remember what i said last year about Conner. But if i ever doubted him, i'll gladly take a platter of crow. He is gonna be a star here for a long time. He exhibits traits that Bettis had, who we were able to win SBs with, yes ik, different time, different defense, but my point his he is gonna be a vital part of this team for the forseeable future. 

He can do a lot more than Bettis could do. 

[VigilantZombie]

6 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

He can do a lot more than Bettis could do. 

I agree, i was simply talking about as a runner with his ability to bulldoze through people. But yes he is a much more dynamic player than Bettis.

[Chieferific]

Sooooo, Week 10 for Bell I guess. 

[VigilantZombie]

6 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Sooooo, Week 10 for Bell I guess. 

I hope he isn't even activated until week 17.

Then if we already have the division locked up they can play Bell run him 50 times in that game if he can even stay healthy just to make sure that Connor doesn't have to play and he is still healthy and then bench Bell again for the playoffs

[43M]

17 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Sure...but how many people compare players on this site...then say..."considering context, of course."  That's a given, is my point...of course there is context; there is context in every comparison ever made between two players...

The bolded is completely false.

Ive had numerous debates with people who bring up certain stats when comparing players, but had absolutely no context to go with it.

There are alot of people who just look at stats and try to compare players without having watched said players enough.   I see it all the time on here.

 

17 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

But regardless, I am not arguing the 'context' of your point, lol.  I do agree, of course, that things have changed since last season, and yes, of course, Conner is being afforded more opportunities at the goal line.  But his two TDs on Sunday (22yds and 12yds), obviously, were not of the goal line variety.

Bottom line--Conner is getting it done, and in large part, due to scheme/excellent OL blocking, which is what Bell also enjoyed...which is my whole point; Bell was/is not as good as his numbers indicate, and we will see this when he goes to another team. Of course he wants to stay on the Steelers...he knows...but sorry, bub...can't have your cake and eat it, too!

I said during the offseason that I had faith that Conner could replace Bell in the RUNNING game.   I was concerned about him in the passing game. but Conner has been terrific in all phases.    I am now a huge James Conner fan.

HOWEVER, in the end, (IMO anyway) you cant really compare one year worth of production to LeVeon's best year and say Conner is BETTER....overall or in certain area.  YOU CAN, however, surmise that Conner is proving why teams should never really pay any RB the type of money Bell was demanding. 

Honestly, this is a very unfair league from RBs.    They take a beating and are often an integral part of an offense, but between their short shelf life, how dependent they are on the OLine for success and how easy it is to find RBs that can be productive, RBs are always going to get kind of raw deal compared to other positions.   Thats why I didnt INITIALLY have an issue with Bell sitting out and demanding more....but him acting like an idiot has turned me against him pretty fiercely.   

Let Bell walk and give Conner a nice pay day next year.   Rather pay Conner while he is still fairly young.   Bell couldve gotten that too if he wasnt an idiot. 

[Ward4HOF]

9 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

The bolded is completely false.

Ive had numerous debates with people who bring up certain stats when comparing players, but had absolutely no context to go with it.

There are alot of people who just look at stats and try to compare players without having watched said players enough.   I see it all the time on here.

 

I said during the offseason that I had faith that Conner could replace Bell in the RUNNING game.   I was concerned about him in the passing game. but Conner has been terrific in all phases.    I am now a huge James Conner fan.

HOWEVER, in the end, (IMO anyway) you cant really compare one year worth of production to LeVeon's best year and say Conner is BETTER....overall or in certain area.  YOU CAN, however, surmise that Conner is proving why teams should never really pay any RB the type of money Bell was demanding. 

Honestly, this is a very unfair league from RBs.    They take a beating and are often an integral part of an offense, but between their short shelf life, how dependent they are on the OLine for success and how easy it is to find RBs that can be productive, RBs are always going to get kind of raw deal compared to other positions.   Thats why I didnt INITIALLY have an issue with Bell sitting out and demanding more....but him acting like an idiot has turned me against him pretty fiercely.   

Let Bell walk and give Conner a nice pay day next year.   Rather pay Conner while he is still fairly young.   Bell couldve gotten that too if he wasnt an idiot. 

Regarding bolded above--OK, I'm not talking about the idiots on this forum; I'm talking about the rational, intelligent posters...obviously, not like...what was his name from last summer that I debated with on the GB??  The guy who said that Julio was "firmly the #1 WR" in the NFL??  The guy who STILL, has yet to have a TD this year, had only 3 last year (AB has had 17 in that same time frame, lol), has fewer receptions, and was NOT EVEN a 1st Tm All-Pro last year...

...but I digress, again...my point is, this forum is littered with fools...the 'context' in which I was making my point was regarding rational, intelligent debates.

And I was not, at anytime, questioning your thoughts on Conner, either last year, or this summer, or now...we all had our concerns with Conner...I certainly did too; mine were very similar to yours, which is why several months ago I recommended bringing in another RB to replace Bell. I was wrong; it wasn't necessary, obviously.  The answer was in the locker room all along, which is fantastic.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts now--let Bell walk; pay Conner. I know 7 games is an awfully small sample size, but the great thing is, he's not going to demand Bell money; Conner will likely be thrilled with a 5 year/$35M contract at the conclusion of this season...maybe even $40M to avoid any potentiality of him not accepting. Make enough of it guaranteed (not all of it, of course, but a similar % to what AB received, would be fair...%...not $).

And yes, the RBs in the NFL get exploited for a few years, then tossed aside like dirty laundry; but I am FAR from feeling 'sorry' for any of these guys who can secure $20M in the bank by age 26 (just an example). If they are smart (which 90% are not) they can enjoy their spoils, play for a few years, get out, and live on the interest for the rest of your life...

...what's 8% of, say, $10M? $800K?  Yeah, I can live with an annual salary of $800K.  Oh, to high?  Can't get 8%?  OK, go get a money market acct (where interest rates go up based upon total value) for like 3%...that would be only $300K...oh, man...what a bummer...how will 'he' feed his 8 kids and support 3 'Baby Mommas'??  Of course, those 'types' are not the ones that are actually smart enough to set aside the $10M Bonus Check to earn interest, lol!

I know...very simplistic viewpoint, but c'mon...

Back to business--Bell pushed this WAY too far, and has now officially hurt the team; does he REALLY think he's going to waltz in here in a week and just resume his old job??  If he does, I have ZERO respect for Colbert, Tomlin, or any of the other decision maker in the FO.

[3rivers]

On 2018-10-29 at 11:59 PM, CKSteeler said:

A lot of us just really have to eat crow with Conner. He was not some feel good story, but a guy that with time + some form of coaching became a good player. Come to think of it, a lot Steelers fans didn't even like the Bell pick...I'm as guilty as anyone here on both counts.

When we drafted Connor I thought it was a good pick for position since Bell would be gone (or so I thought) but it wasn't as though I knew how good he was since I don't watch that much NCAA.  In the limited snaps he got last season, I thought he would be better than what we have had in the past other than bell and Dwill. It was too bad when Connor got hurt , and I thought what if his knee was never the same, but he has rebounded thats for sure. He appeared to lose weight and in preseason I thought there was no doubt he matched the OL to the point I could see a 5 ypc avg. What shocked me was his receiving skills, and the 1 handed catches as well. Like many, I think all the hype about hearing that Bell is such a WR2 out of the backfield, that my view was tainted and as a result when Connor just did the same on the field as Bell stats wise (better actually) it furthered my dislike for the media.  

What the media seems to fail to bring up is that Connor practically lost 2 games worth of production since our D let the game get out of control in the first quarter in 2 games.  If our D gets respectable (top 1/3 of the league) I can see Connor getting 20Td's with this OL) . I want to see more Air Connor at the GL, like Tunch says, he looked like Walter Payton. We don't see much of that anymore. 

Liked the Bell pick , but he was more of a bruiser back then and the idea of a dual threat , he seemed like a high value in RD2.   This year I thought if they let bell go, then drafting Penny in RD2 would possibly help, but Penny is not even playing as a RD1 pick  in seattle, so maybe we will have the chance to trade for him for a mid  draft pick if we need to get a RB. 

The downside to this teams philosophy is that they are too stubborn and loyal with their own draft picks. If they could make some trades it should help , because in recent years relying on drafting hasn't .  A trade before the draft and a trade in season (if required) shouldn't be out of the norm if the drafting hasn't lived up to the standard. Like this year, we all know we are in trouble at CB unless Sutton, Allen or Burns break out and as a result an in season trade this year for CB2 would work. Of course, it also could have worked las year , another example of why I am thinking colbert is the problem. 

[3rivers]

30 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Back to business--Bell pushed this WAY too far, and has now officially hurt the team; does he REALLY think he's going to waltz in here in a week and just resume his old job??  If he does, I have ZERO respect for Colbert, Tomlin, or any of the other decision maker in the FO.

in the media, former players think he should be handed his starting job back.  I am in agreement with you, in that Connor got his chance and the TEAM/OL has responded and keep him as the starter. I would only keep bell as a back up or for spelling Connor. It helps preserve bell (chichis what he wanted) and is better for the team (Connor is more productive).  The fact that bell is here and all this happened is on colbert. If we are one and done in the playoffs , is colbert's  job on the line especially if the loss was obviously because of CB play and no in season trade was made and his RD1 pick failed?

The way bell was last year , he took over a month to get near where he was. If this extra 3 months off adds to that, he might take 5 weeks to get back to where he was, and thats if he gets all the reps.  Thats the importance of training camp for the RB or at least for bell, because there was a notable drop off for the first month last year. With our schedule, we can't risk this and if we do and lose, then the coach and GM need to answer to rooney unless rooney tells them to play bell . I don't know the chain of command there, but based on play, Connor is the starter and stay with what has worked THIS season.