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Raider 49er game thread... Last Battle of the Bay

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7 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

How was he not gonna lose the locker room when we are trying to get the #1 pick? And only like 8-10 of these guys will be in the team in the next 3 years. Gruden could care less if he lost the locker room. This forum, and the media, has a terrible track record of looking at the immediate short term and always being wrong in the long term. Always. Gruden is looking at this in the long term, doesn’t care what fans think in the mean time, and his goal is to build a championship roster in the next 3-4 years.    

Man, all I'm gonna say is I hope you're right.

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1 minute ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Man, all I'm gonna say is I hope you're right.

So funny people questioning Grudens passion. This man came back with a plan and came back to win the Raiders a championship at all costs. Almost cheating what he is doing, and I’m glad he’s willing to do whatever it takes to win a championship. What’s the difference from 1-15 and not winning a Super Bowl? I’ll tell ya... nothing. Nothing at all, except you don’t have a championship and you have miles better draft position. 

I wouldn’t even be surprised if Gruden wins a title and the media hits us with #TankGate. You guys are witnessing history atm IMO.

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6 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

So funny people questioning Grudens passion. This man came back with a plan and came back to win the Raiders a championship at all costs. Almost cheating what he is doing, and I’m glad he’s willing to do whatever it takes to win a championship. What’s the difference from 1-15 and not winning a Super Bowl? I’ll tell ya... nothing. Nothing at all, except you don’t have a championship and you have miles better draft position. 

I wouldn’t even be surprised if Gruden wins a title and the media hits us with #TankGate. You guys are witnessing history atm IMO.

Look, here's the thing.....  It's one thing if you're competitive, lose a close game and your team looks well coached, just short on talent. That's a moral victory. You maintain high draft position, you give the fans some hope and things feel okay. 

It's an entirely different thing to get blown off the field by a 1-7 team, with a third strong QB making his first start. To get embarrassed on a national broadcast and have your team quit. That's not "tanking" that's just being an awful team top to bottom. That's the kind of stuff that deter FA from signing. Having draft picks saying they don't want to go play for you.  

That loss last night wasn't about "tanking." It looked like an organization and a coaching regime that don't know what they are doing. 

There are to this point no signs that this regime can coach or develop/attract talent. You can call it tanking all you want. But getting routed in a rival game by a 1-7 team isn't tanking, it points to deeper, larger issues that are going to take a lot to overcome. 

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13 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Look, here's the thing.....  It's one thing if you're competitive, lose a close game and your team looks well coached, just short on talent. That's a moral victory. You maintain high draft position, you give the fans some hope and things feel okay. 

It's an entirely different thing to get blown off the field by a 1-7 team, with a third strong QB making his first start. To get embarrassed on a national broadcast and have your team quit. That's not "tanking" that's just being an awful team top to bottom. That's the kind of stuff that deter FA from signing. Having draft picks saying they don't want to go play for you.  

That loss last night wasn't about "tanking." It looked like an organization and a coaching regime that don't know what they are doing. 

There are to this point no signs that this regime can coach or develop/attract talent. You can call it tanking all you want. But getting routed in a rival game by a 1-7 team isn't tanking, it points to deeper, larger issues that are going to take a lot to overcome. 

No, that was tanking. I even said before the broadcast Mullins would have near 300 and 3 TDs. Right now we are also calling vanilla stuff on offense, they are not even trying. If I’m tanking why play it close? Just get blown out and take the for sure L. 

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1 minute ago, BayRaider said:

No, that was tanking. I even said before the broadcast Mullins would have near 300 and 3 TDs. Right now we are also calling vanilla stuff on offense, they are not even trying. If I’m tanking why play it close? Just get blown out and take the for sure L. 

So the players that might have a future on the team don't become disillusioned with a coach completely giving up.

So that prospective FA's from other teams watching the game don't think "no way am I signing for that dumpster fire".

So that the fans don't completely quit on the team.

I understand the ideology of not wanting to win a football game. But if you actively do want to be flat out embarrassed, no less by a divisional rival on primetime (who also sucks), then that's bad. Really bad.

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Forgot to include the quote

Edited by drfrey13

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33 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

No, that was tanking. I even said before the broadcast Mullins would have near 300 and 3 TDs. Right now we are also calling vanilla stuff on offense, they are not even trying. If I’m tanking why play it close? Just get blown out and take the for sure L. 

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22 minutes ago, Nightmare said:

So the players that might have a future on the team don't become disillusioned with a coach completely giving up.

So that prospective FA's from other teams watching the game don't think "no way am I signing for that dumpster fire".

So that the fans don't completely quit on the team.

I understand the ideology of not wanting to win a football game. But if you actively do want to be flat out embarrassed, no less by a divisional rival on primetime (who also sucks), then that's bad. Really bad.

I think this off-season we are going to have to throw some money at players that other players want to play with and for.  Over pay for a FA that inspires confidence.  Our coaches and current players do not.  Just an example but Fitzpatrick or Mayfield would be better QBs for this team even if Carr is the better QB.  The opening of the game last night they showed Carr pumping up the team but it just seemed fake and uninspiring.  What he said has been said before and it felt like he did not even believe it.  Maybe it is Gruden, Mack, the injuries, current state of the team, or he is just that person but it needs to change or we need to find a leader.  There are a ton of talented QBs that did not win championships and titles for many reasons and the worst one is lack of leadership and players not willing to play for your QB.  You will always look at the team and think it is someone else's fault if you could just get your QB some help.

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1 hour ago, true2form said:

Like they did during the game, I'll keep referencing this: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-01-05-9201020379-story.html 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11659891/herschel-walker-trade-25th-anniversary-run-birthed-dallas-cowboys-dynasty

It's clear to anyone who wants to see it that this is the plan.  No one knows if it will work, but this is what's happening like it or not.

 

 

I said it before that half this team will be gone next year and we have followed what looks like the Dallas plan but we need to execute it.  "The normal progression for an NFL player," Wannstedt says, "is to learn the playbook in training camp and learn the game plan during the week. Well, in the middle of the season, we were having to teach players how to properly huddle up."  This looks a lot like us last night.  We need to teach players to lineup correctly at this point.  We made the trades but failed to optimize our return.

Dallas: "The team Johnson had contacted that day was the Cleveland Browns because their GM, Ernie Accorsi, had expressed interest in Walker. Working with the approval of Browns owner Art Modell, Accorsi offered a player, two future No. 1 picks and three number No. 2s.

It was a fair deal, thought Johnson, but he wanted to get another team involved to at least sweeten the pot, so on Wednesday, he called Mike Lynn of the Minnesota Vikings, who had mentioned Walker earlier in the season.

Johnson spelled out a complicated deal involving draft picks, players and conditional draft picks tied to the players. According to the book "The Greatest Team Ever" by Ron St. Angelo and Norm Hitzges, Johnson also put Lynn on the clock, saying he needed a response by 6:30 p.m. or he would make the deal with Cleveland."

Raider: We had multiple offers including one from the Jets on the table.  Chicago gives us a deal we are willing to except and we take it with out getting other teams involved.  The Jets are on record stating that they were willing to increase their offer but we never contacted them after we got the offer from Chicago.  We negotiated from a position of weakness where as Dallas set the terms in their trade from a position of strength.

Dallas: Hit on their picks and had many coaches on staff that had not reached their full potential. 

Oakland: We have a GM and HC/GM that are not good at drafting and a coaching staff that has reached its potential and some should not be in positions they currently hold.  The GM also seems to be in over his head.  RM is good at some aspects of his job and pretty bad at others.

Dallas: Had a QB that could play within the system and execute the game plan.  I do not think Aikman was great but he did what was needed to win championships.

Oakland:  We have a QB that can easily out produce Aikman if he was behind their O-line but he is not and does not trust his teammates or can currently execute the current system. 

There are a lot of moving parts and a lot needs to go right for us to do it but it is possible.  I just wish we had more reliable players and coaches to do what is needed.  A coach/GM combo that worked together and were good evaluating talent or a QB that did not need more than half his line to be pro bowlers to execute.

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I'm not sure they where tanking, prior to Miller's injury the Raiders where moving down the field. After the injury though, they where being taken to the woodshed. 

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7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

 

I said it before that half this team will be gone next year and we have followed what looks like the Dallas plan but we need to execute it.  "The normal progression for an NFL player," Wannstedt says, "is to learn the playbook in training camp and learn the game plan during the week. Well, in the middle of the season, we were having to teach players how to properly huddle up."  This looks a lot like us last night.  We need to teach players to lineup correctly at this point.  We made the trades but failed to optimize our return.

Dallas: "The team Johnson had contacted that day was the Cleveland Browns because their GM, Ernie Accorsi, had expressed interest in Walker. Working with the approval of Browns owner Art Modell, Accorsi offered a player, two future No. 1 picks and three number No. 2s.

It was a fair deal, thought Johnson, but he wanted to get another team involved to at least sweeten the pot, so on Wednesday, he called Mike Lynn of the Minnesota Vikings, who had mentioned Walker earlier in the season.

Johnson spelled out a complicated deal involving draft picks, players and conditional draft picks tied to the players. According to the book "The Greatest Team Ever" by Ron St. Angelo and Norm Hitzges, Johnson also put Lynn on the clock, saying he needed a response by 6:30 p.m. or he would make the deal with Cleveland."

Raider: We had multiple offers including one from the Jets on the table.  Chicago gives us a deal we are willing to except and we take it with out getting other teams involved.  The Jets are on record stating that they were willing to increase their offer but we never contacted them after we got the offer from Chicago.  We negotiated from a position of weakness where as Dallas set the terms in their trade from a position of strength.

Dallas: Hit on their picks and had many coaches on staff that had not reached their full potential. 

Oakland: We have a GM and HC/GM that are not good at drafting and a coaching staff that has reached its potential and some should not be in positions they currently hold.  The GM also seems to be in over his head.  RM is good at some aspects of his job and pretty bad at others.

Dallas: Had a QB that could play within the system and execute the game plan.  I do not think Aikman was great but he did what was needed to win championships.

Oakland:  We have a QB that can easily out produce Aikman if he was behind their O-line but he is not and does not trust his teammates or can currently execute the current system. 

There are a lot of moving parts and a lot needs to go right for us to do it but it is possible.  I just wish we had more reliable players and coaches to do what is needed.  A coach/GM combo that worked together and were good evaluating talent or a QB that did not need more than half his line to be pro bowlers to execute.

And what you're saying is true of course, but you're looking at in hindsight.

The roster isn't set. Nowhere close. The staff isn't set. Nowhere close. 

Greatest advice I can give? Stop looking for the answers that aren't even there yet.  

Those Cowboys had a young Irvin and rookie Aikman. Shula was the OC and they went 1-15 while getting blasted for trading their best player. 

Add Emmit Smith, a host of other players, Norv Turner and the rest is history.

Only time will tell.

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