Chubb, Rookie of the month.

[champ11]

Chubb has looked really good and even if he finished with 12ish sacks I'd still say we should have drafted Rosen. 

[broncofan48]

For the record I too wanted Rosen but what will Chubb have to do to make it the better pick?

Be Von?

Because QB above all else thinking would’ve landed us Cam and not Von if we would have drafted 1st in 2011.

So while Chubb isn’t Von, Rosen isn’t Cam

[germ-x]

4 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

For the record I too wanted Rosen but what will Chubb have to do to make it the better pick?

Be Von?

Because QB above all else thinking would’ve landed us Cam and not Von if we would have drafted 1st in 2011.

So while Chubb isn’t Von, Rosen isn’t Cam

I mean the debate will always be there.  I fully understand it too, if Rosen or Allen become franchise caliber QBs taking Chubb would’ve been the wrong pick. 

What annoys me is the perception that Chubb is just this average “Robert Ayers” type guy.  He is far from that.  You don’t get after the QB the way he has simply because of Von Miller playing next to you.  I am not saying Miller doesn’t help, but Chubb has still shown, as a 22 year old rookie who will further figure out how to get after the QB, that he’s a terrific talent fully worth being selected at #5 overall.  The dude is going to be an elite player.  Literally everything, college production, measurables at the combine, and early success points to that.

[germ-x]

5 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Show me the Goff 2016 highlights.  They are pretty few and far between.   Now that he's broken out - people forget fans were actually questioning if he should even be a starter.    Textbook case of recall bias - now that he's great, people don't remember the actual rookie year.   As for Rosen, the MIN & SF comebacks (MIN then went ahead for good later) are already there.   And again, that's on an OL that's worse than our current one...and MIKE MCCOY as the OC.   Mike Freaking McCoy.     So the argument that we'd be unable to achieve any success - it's impossible to say ARI is any easier of a test than we would be .    It's just the guy was successful even as a freshman, and has owned the QB skillset of accuracy, anticipation, placement  and pocket awareness, along with old-school willingness to hang in the pocket that translates most to NFL success.    Again, the only risk with Rosen is injury (and it's a legit one). 

None of which takes anything away from Chubb, FWIW.   

Yeah, but Rosen can be nit picked the way Chubb is as well, not saying you, but many.  

Rosen doesn’t throw well on the run, he isn’t very athletic, he has interests outside of football (there were talks he’d play 4-5 years and leave because he isn’t dumb enough to get beaten into a pulp), which brought up concerns about his love for the game.  He also has an ego the size of Jupiter and doesn’t take well too coaching or is well liked by teammates, his freaking college coach said he wouldn’t take him #1.  While not glaring, he also has off the field drama that purely stems from his sense of entitlement and an “I can do whatever I want” attitude.

Rosen isn’t the can’t miss prospect you’re making him out to be.  He was the most pro ready in this draft, no doubt, but there is FAR more that could lead to him busting than simply getting injured.

[Broncofan]

23 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Yeah, but Rosen can be nit picked the way Chubb is as well, not saying you, but many.  

Rosen doesn’t throw well on the run, he isn’t very athletic, he has interests outside of football (there were talks he’d play 4-5 years and leave because he isn’t dumb enough to get beaten into a pulp), which brought up concerns about his love for the game.  He also has an ego the size of Jupiter and doesn’t take well too coaching or is well liked by teammates, his freaking college coach said he wouldn’t take him #1.  While not glaring, he also has off the field drama that purely stems from his sense of entitlement and an “I can do whatever I want” attitude.

Rosen isn’t the can’t miss prospect you’re making him out to be.  He was the most pro ready in this draft, no doubt, but there is FAR more that could lead to him busting than simply getting injured.

Well that's a matter of debate - but of all the posters, you very well know the argument that if you think the guy is the franchise QB, and you don't have one, you pull the trigger.  If you don't think Rosen is that guy, I respect the point, I don't agree with it, but I get it.   Let's face it, though, Elway put his chips on the wrong horse at QB this year.    If he only gets a 1-year stopgap guy who's a ton cheaper, and really thinks more for 2019 than win-now in 2018 (which we all agree was a colossal blunder), you do wonder how differently Elway would have acted.  For all we know, it could have been Allen (ugh for me, but I know others believe).

 Again, it's nothing against Chubb - and that's what @lomaxgrUK & @champ11 are saying, too.    It really depends on whether Rosen is the franchise guy (for me, for others it's Allen, for others it's both lol), and if he is, and we don't find that franchise guy next year - then yeah, no matter what Chubb does, it's a missed pick.  Again, I actually didn't have a problem with Chubb as the 1.5 pick, if we were faced with only Allen - because I don't believe in Allen as that guy (but I do know others did).   But I do believe in Rosen, and frankly, him being pro ready is actually probably the biggest shield against our coaching weaknesses.  But again, time will tell.   

I do appreciate you get it's a nuanced point.  Remember, we both agree if you have the shot at the franchise QB, you take it.   We don't always have to agree on whether Player X is the guy or not.   But if you had concerns on whether Rosen is a good enough prospect, I will say there is no one in 2019's class that is going to give you more comfort - as you noted, he's the most pro-ready guy in a very, very talented QB class.   That speaks volumes.   Whoever we put our chips behind in 2019, well, pro-ready will be the last adjective used to describe whoever we get at our draft spot (be it Rd1, Rd2, etc.).    Personally, I'd love to see Elway avoid temptation and not overreach for need, and only consider 2020 as an all-in draft to target early, but the pressure to find Mr. QBOTF after whiffing on Keenum is going to be intense.

Either way, though, all of the above doesn't take away from what Chubb's done so far.   Nothing but respect there. 

[broncofan48]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Well that's a matter of debate - but of all the posters, you very well know the argument that if you think the guy is the franchise QB, and you don't have one, you pull the trigger.  If you don't, I respect the point, I don't agree with it, but I get it.   Let's face it, though, Elway put his chips on the wrong horse at QB this year.   

 Again, it's nothing against Chubb - and that's what @lomaxgrUK & @champ11 are saying, too.    It really depends on whether Rosen is the franchise guy, and if he is, and we don't find that guy next year - then yeah, no matter what Chubb does, it's a missed pick.  Again, I actually didn't have a problem with Chubb as the guy, if we were faced with only Allen - because I don't believe in Allen as that guy.   But I do believe in Rosen, and frankly, him being pro ready is actually probably the biggest shield against our coaching weaknesses.  But again, time will tell.   

I do appreciate you get it's a nuanced point.  Remember, we both agree if you have the shot at the franchise QB, you take it.   We don't always have to agree on whether Player X is the guy or not.   But if you had concerns on whether Rosen is a good enough prospect, I will say there is no one in 2019's class that is going to give you more comfort - as you noted, he's the most pro-ready guy in a very, very talented QB class.   That speaks volumes.   Whoever we put our chips behind in 2019, well, man, I'd love to see Elway avoid temptation and not overreach for need, but the pressure's going to be intense.

Either way, though, all of the above doesn't take away from what Chubb's done so far.   Nothing but respect there. 

So if Dareus went #1 in 2011 that logic ends up with us having Cam and not Von

 

And Rosen has 3 other QBs go before him.  So It’s not like he’s some no brained elite QB to prospect.  There’s reasons he dropped as @germ-x alluded to

[broncofan48]

I think Elway is trying to recreate 2015 to be honest.   He’s been burned by quarterbacks and may be gun shy. If there’s a QB he is super high on that’s who he would take but other than that he’s going to try and build an elite D, put some weapons on O and get a QB (Keenum) who allegedly doesn’t turn the ball over.  

[Broncofan]

15 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

So if Dareus went #1 in 2011 that logic ends up with us having Cam and not Von

I'll be truthful - I didn't think Cam was that good.   He's actually proven me wrong there.  I didn't think there was anyone at QB worth taking.

But, you know, 2011 is a great example to bring up - because 2019 looks exactly like 2011 - except there's no obvious Cam guy who even brings up any temptation to go early.   But there are 2 generational talents in Nick Bosa & Ed Oliver.  Even though we won't sniff either where we are picking, I still hope we pass on QB in Rd1.  

[broncofan48]

1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

I'll be truthful - I didn't think Cam was that good.   He's actually proven me wrong there.  I didn't think there was anyone at QB worth taking.

But, you know, 2011 is a great example to bring up - because 2019 looks exactly like 2011 - except there's no obvious Cam.  I hope we pass on QB in Rd1.  

Oh I do too, I’m not high on any of them.  A few of my friends think Winston ends up here, I’m not sure what to think of that

[Broncofan]

16 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

I think Elway is trying to recreate 2015 to be honest.   He’s been burned by quarterbacks and may be gun shy. If there’s a QB he is super high on that’s who he would take but other than that he’s going to try and build an elite D, put some weapons on O and get a QB (Keenum) who allegedly doesn’t turn the ball over.  

At 10 TD / 10 INT, 6 fumbles (only 1 lost, but that's all luck), 22 sacks after 8 games....let's all agree that was a big whiff.    But yeah, that's exactly the problem - Elway wanted to win now, when we didn't have a 2015-talented team.  Not even close.

[Broncofan]

10 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

Oh I do too, I’m not high on any of them.  A few of my friends think Winston ends up here, I’m not sure what to think of that

I'm actually a believer in Winston, but I don't think we can fix him.   He literally has one major Achilles - he can't see underneath cover guys.    Look at all of his picks, 3/4 of them are just that one weakness.   But it's kind of a big one lol.  Honestly, I think he needs his eyes checked or something.  The CIN game last week was abysmal.

If you fix that, you get the rest of the skill set which is really, really good.  But...not seeing underneath coverage....yeah, that's kind of a HUGE flaw, in year 4.  

FWIW, I think he re-gains the starting job when TAM is eliminated, and they keep him.  Because there is no way they will want to spend on this draft, either.  They would rather wait for 2020.   And with Winston already available to lock up, well, it's very much like we are with Keenum - except Winston's only had 2.5 seasons (remember he missed half a season last year with shoulder injury), so there's still some hope he can improve on his weaknesses.   In his 7th year, we sadly know Keenum is what he is.  But even then, if you ask me to spend a Rd1 pick on a QB next year, and that then locks us out of the 2020 class, or take Keenum back for a year, and get some other raw project later.....UGLY choices, but I'll hold my noise and take Door B.

Either way, enough on the QB issue lol, I've said my piece, back to Chubb.....

[germ-x]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

Well that's a matter of debate - but of all the posters, you very well know the argument that if you think the guy is the franchise QB, and you don't have one, you pull the trigger.  If you don't think Rosen is that guy, I respect the point, I don't agree with it, but I get it.   Let's face it, though, Elway put his chips on the wrong horse at QB this year.    If he only gets a 1-year stopgap guy who's a ton cheaper, and really thinks more for 2019 than win-now in 2018 (which we all agree was a colossal blunder), you do wonder how differently Elway would have acted.  For all we know, it could have been Allen (ugh for me, but I know others believe).

 Again, it's nothing against Chubb - and that's what @lomaxgrUK & @champ11 are saying, too.    It really depends on whether Rosen is the franchise guy (for me, for others it's Allen, for others it's both lol), and if he is, and we don't find that franchise guy next year - then yeah, no matter what Chubb does, it's a missed pick.  Again, I actually didn't have a problem with Chubb as the 1.5 pick, if we were faced with only Allen - because I don't believe in Allen as that guy (but I do know others did).   But I do believe in Rosen, and frankly, him being pro ready is actually probably the biggest shield against our coaching weaknesses.  But again, time will tell.   

I do appreciate you get it's a nuanced point.  Remember, we both agree if you have the shot at the franchise QB, you take it.   We don't always have to agree on whether Player X is the guy or not.   But if you had concerns on whether Rosen is a good enough prospect, I will say there is no one in 2019's class that is going to give you more comfort - as you noted, he's the most pro-ready guy in a very, very talented QB class.   That speaks volumes.   Whoever we put our chips behind in 2019, well, pro-ready will be the last adjective used to describe whoever we get at our draft spot (be it Rd1, Rd2, etc.).    Personally, I'd love to see Elway avoid temptation and not overreach for need, and only consider 2020 as an all-in draft to target early, but the pressure to find Mr. QBOTF after whiffing on Keenum is going to be intense.

Either way, though, all of the above doesn't take away from what Chubb's done so far.   Nothing but respect there. 

The things about Rosen aren’t a debate, they’re facts.  Doesn’t mean he won’t be a terrific QB, but that’s why he was picked 4th out of the QBs in this draft.  He isn’t simply an injury from being great, he has not only physical limitations, but attitude ones as well.

I don’t disagree with the rest.  I do agree you take a franchise QB if you don’t have one, but have always said you have to view  the player as such.  Elway may have made a mistake there, we’ll see.  I personally was never a Rosen fan, and it’s why I couldn’t be a GM.  Dudes a straight tool.  It’s Rex Ryan, but Ryan shoots it straight and he even said in his few run ins with Rosen he’s just hard to walk away from and like, I haven’t even met the guy and have that opinion. Allen was always my #2 QB after Darnold.

Either way.  Chubb’s legit.  Not saying he’s perfect, but all the knocks against him are nit picky and tiresome.  He’s not Robert Ayers (and I was a huge Ayers fan, he had the most dominant Senior Bowl I’ve ever seen) move on.

[thebestever6]

8 hours ago, champ11 said:

Chubb has looked really good and even if he finished with 12ish sacks I'd still say we should have drafted Rosen. 

Why this makes no sense this coaching staff is a lame duck. Historically rookie qbs who change offensive coordinators after year one have a terrible success rate. Goff is the exception not the norm. 

 

Couple that with Rosens injuries and our poor line it's a no brainer pass  . I get it QBs are the most important position in this sport but wasting top 5 draft picks isn't what a winning franchise does.

[jolly red giant]

8 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

Why this makes no sense this coaching staff is a lame duck. Historically rookie qbs who change offensive coordinators after year one have a terrible success rate. Goff is the exception not the norm. 

 

Couple that with Rosens injuries and our poor line it's a no brainer pass  . I get it QBs are the most important position in this sport but wasting top 5 draft picks isn't what a winning franchise does.

This debate will go on for a long time if Rosen or Allen prove to be legitimate QBs - if they fail then it is a non-issue.

Irrespective of this - we still need a QB - and the Broncos are not the only team who need a QB.

The other problem is that drafting a QB is far from an exact science - if it was nobody would be needing a QB. In fact I suspect that drafting a legitimate QB is far more difficult than any other position.

I saw a stat somewhere yesterday that last year with the Vikings Case Keenum had an 80% completion rate when he had a clean pocket to throw from - this year when the OL gives him a clean pocket he is completing 20% of his passes. He is the lowest ranked QB passing from the pocket - while one of the highest outside the pocket. Now either the play calling is crap, Keenum's head isn't right, or a combination of both. Despite what you think of him Keenum should be better - I am not saying he should be as good as last season - but he should be better than he is at the moment.

I suspect that Keenum will be QB again next season. Can't see them getting a FA QB - and any QB they draft will need time. Maybe the new HC will figure out how to make Keenum a bit better than he is at the moment.

[champ11]

11 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

Why this makes no sense this coaching staff is a lame duck. Historically rookie qbs who change offensive coordinators after year one have a terrible success rate. Goff is the exception not the norm. 

 

Couple that with Rosens injuries and our poor line it's a no brainer pass  . I get it QBs are the most important position in this sport but wasting top 5 draft picks isn't what a winning franchise does.

Rosen would make our line look better. I’d rather have a high level QB than a high level pass rusher. It’s going to be very difficult for us to get a high level QB in the next two years. We’re gonna be bad again next year. Pretty simple why Rosen would be more valuable for us. 

Chubb is really good though and better than I expected