How would you use the Le'Veon sized chunk of cap space that will free up this offseason?

[Dcash4]

3 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

This logic is flawed, proof being Artie Burns. Sean Davis was terrible in coverage and tackling when he got here. Take off your blinders. He was not only raw his technique and angles were horrible and they didnt improve under Lake. With a change of Secomdary coach he has finally shown to potentially be the prospect we drafted him to be but he has a long way to go.

You’ll have to explain to me how the logic is flawed. Everything Artie Burns does has been a negative. SOME of what Sean Davis did last year was a negative, but you ignore that he also did a lot of good.....which makes it ironic that you say I need to take the blinders off because.....☝️

 

[VigilantZombie]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

You’ll have to explain to me how the logic is flawed. Everything Artie Burns does has been a negative. SOME of what Sean Davis did last year was a negative, but you ignore that he also did a lot of good.....which makes it ironic that you say I need to take the blinders off because.....☝️

 

Some of Sean Davis was negative? The only reason he wasnt the worst S on our team is because mike mitchell was here. Most of what Davis did last year was negative some of it wasnt. Lets not pretend he was better last year than he actually was. 

[Dcash4]

37 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

Some of Sean Davis was negative? The only reason he wasnt the worst S on our team is because mike mitchell was here. Most of what Davis did last year was negative some of it wasnt. Lets not pretend he was better last year than he actually was. 

Sean Davis played 948 snaps last year. He lead the team with 92 tackles, which also puts him towards the top of the league in terms of safeties. He also ranked towards the top in the league in pass deflections and interceptions — both of which lead our team. You don’t end up at the top of the league at your position if you suck all the time. 

Sean Davis missed 23 tackles, which actually put him second on the team to — Ryan Shazier - a guy who only played 12 games and missed 28 times. Shazier missed on nearly 25% of his opportunities, Davis on 20%. So hey, he was even better at tackling than someone that was generally considered our best player. 

So no, the math is not on your side. Even if you want to tell me he failed on 160 pass plays (which is an egregiously high number, but 10 per game) that means between passing plays and missed tackles he failed 16% of his snaps. I’m not great at math, but I’m going to go out on a limb and tell you that’s not the majority of the plays where he failed. Hell, double the number - 32% is still the minority. 

So this idea that he failed on the GREAT MAJORITY of the year is just laughably wrong. My percentage is made up and you can poke holes in it all day, but the point is that Sean Davis played a lot of football last year and was successful more times than not, but you BLINDLY (your word) only choose to look at the negative when you consider him the worst saftey in the league and are ignorant to how his year as a whole panned out. 

Davis made a bunch of plays last year. He also failed on a bunch of plays. If your really going to flat out ignore that he did anything relatively good and think he failed on the majority of his 900 snaps than we are done here. If you have anything more than “he sucks at coverage and tackling” I’d love to continue the debate. 

[3rivers]

if we could afford to sign ET, that would help this thread wouldn't it?

[warfelg]

Unless Dallas offers a massively low deal off the broken leg I think ET is a very very long shot. I got the feeling he wants to be a Cowboy just about no matter what. 

[VigilantZombie]

That's fine Dcash, but I also watched the games and saw how poor he played.  I also don't recall saying he 'sucked all the time'.  This season has been one of his best imo in terms of effort and coverage, regardless of stats, he has shown a more 'skillful awareness' on the field.  He has been in a growth process, unlike Artie Burns he has actually developed to some degree.  He is a long way from being a premier safety, something that frankly he may never be.  

I'm not sure it's necessary to make extending him a priority unless the team actually things he'll continue to get better.  If they think he has reached his ceiling, personally I wouldn't offer him an extension.   

We don't have to agree on this one player but I'm not suggesting to cut him either.  We can move on to guys we do agree on.

[VigilantZombie]

28 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Unless Dallas offers a massively low deal off the broken leg I think ET is a very very long shot. I got the feeling he wants to be a Cowboy just about no matter what. 

I agree with this and the Broken leg kind of scares me off.  ET hasn't exactly been healthy over the last couple seasons. 

I am significantly in favor of taking the cap penalty and cutting Burnett, I really felt this was a good signing when it first happened, man was I wrong, what a waste.

 

Someone I really Really hope hits FA and I hope the Steelers target hard AF is Landon Collins. 

 

Safeties that (currently) have expiring contracts at the end of this season (obviously they're not all going to hit FA)

Tyrann Mathieu

Earl Thomas

Landon Collins

Lamarcus Joyner

Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix

Adrian Phillips

The quality of those listed above varies obviously but I think Collins in our defense would be insane.  I have very little doubt he is going to head to FA, in fact I'd be stunned if he resigned with what is one of the worst teams in the NFL with horrible coaches and a disgruntled locker room.

 

A ILB I haven't seen mentioned, perhaps because of his injury this season, is Denzel Perryman.  Anyone got an opinion on him?

A Couple OLB's I'd like to see a couple opinions on are Eli Harold (might not get resigned by Detroit, who knows) and Jeremiah Attaochu (Idk if he'll get resigned by NYJ, he may)

[warfelg]

On the Burnett thing: he’s been good since getting healthy. 

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, wwhickok said:

I really felt this was a good signing when it first happened, man was I wrong, what a waste.

What is it that makes you feel this strongly about Burnett? Like, War said...he has been pretty good since getting healthy. 

[VigilantZombie]

13 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

What is it that makes you feel this strongly about Burnett? Like, War said...he has been pretty good since getting healthy. 

I agree with War, but I don't feel he can stay  healthy.  He hasn't been able to his entire career really and this year, to me, proved it's not going to change.  Are we really suggesting he is worth what he is getting paid for 4-5 games a season?

[Dcash4]

29 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I agree with War, but I don't feel he can stay  healthy.  He hasn't been able to his entire career really and this year, to me, proved it's not going to change.  Are we really suggesting he is worth what he is getting paid for 4-5 games a season?

Understood. He really isn’t getting paid much, but I could go either way with it. His dead cap is actually extremely manageable. 

The initial knee jerk reaction by a lot of folks was that Burnett sucked because he had two plays in the Ravens game that showed up as negatives for him— but he was actually in great position both times and go unlucky by a perfect pass in a known hole in zone and an iffy penalty that he played very well. More bad luck than anything he did negatively. Just making sure the perception wasn’t the judgement here. Health is a legit concern. 

[43M]

16 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Thank you for this well thought out and thouroughly detailed description of his failures. I see the error in my ways. 

First off, I was at work and responded quickly.  

Secondly, all you did was point out stats like it proves your point.    He led the team in tackles because the defense as a whole was terrible and we had alot of plays that got to the second level.   Alot of mediocre defenders over the years racked up huge tackle numbers.    Literally means nothing to me, but if it means something to you, power to ya.     

If you choose to believe he wasnt bad last year, so be it.   I saw a guy who was lost in coverage all year, took bad angles constantly, made numerous costly penalties, and his mistakes came at the worst times....none of which showed up on the stat sheet.    Most of a secondary players impact doesnt show up on the stat sheet....good or bad.

And yes, he was bad far more often than he was good in 2017.

NOW, he was only a 2nd year player and still learning....but Im not saying 2017 is what will define his entire career....Im simply critiquing his standalone 2017 season.

 

16 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Unless you have more than that (and there are plenty of details to describe his short comings) your selling me exactly what I’m telling you is the misleading portion of why the coverage of Sean Davis is that he was THAT awful. You see a missed tackle - that dude sucks. You see a ball caught while he is in the area (without knowing anything of the playcall and assignments) - that dude sucks. The Gronk example is my favorite because people think he gets lit up (he does, it’s freaking Gronk). And then when asked why they would put Davis singled up on Gronk....they all said he wasn’t supposed to be....they called for double coverage and he never got the help. But, nope. Sean Davis sucks. 

Unless we are going to go through every play he was involved in last year, this is an exercise in futility.

16 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Saying he is laughably bad is, aside from being very PFF, an incorrect assessment of his actual year. Artie Burns is having a laughably bad season, and could be considered one of the worst, if not the worst at his position. Every time the ball is thrown his way, he is doing something wrong. He jumps the wrong reads, he is too far out of position, he is playing the wrong coverage, and then when he is even in position...he commits a penalty. That’s as bad as it can get. That the majority of plays you are involved in are deemed failures on your part. That’s where this idea that Sean Davis was the worst is mindnumbingly wrong. Sean ended up on the plus side of the MAJORITY of his plays, but it’s the negatives (and there were a bunch of negatives) that stick out because that’s the failure you know. 

The funny thing about all of this is you are acting like you have proven more than I have.     I dont have problem if you like Davis more than I do, but youve literally proven nothing despite trying to call me out for not being able to prove how much I think he sucked.   Admittedly, I cant prove it....because as Ive stated, its almost impossible to simply look at a secondary players stats and determine how good or bad they were.     There are tons of secondary players who are great but had pretty pedestrian stats, and you wouldnt know how good they were unless you watched them.     On the flip side, I can recall numerous secondary players whose stats made them look much better than they were.   

Im not going to keep discussing this because we will just keep going in circles.

I cant prove how bad I think he was last year, but I sure as hell am not the only one who feels he was one of the worst safeties in the league last year.   THE worst?    Probably not, but I can safely say he was bottom 15 among starting safeties last year, probably bottom 10 and maybe bottom 5.

 

16 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

He was a raw prospect who played multiple positions in college and was immediately asked to START and play multiple positions in the NFL at positions that don’t translate super well from college to the pros. There were going to be inconsistencies, he wasn’t going to be perfect. But the fact that he gets around plays and finished the vast majority means he isn’t overwhelmed like our friend Artie. It was his second year....he grew from year 1 and SEEMS to be growing again in a position More suited for his skills. 

I can agree with most of this except for the fact that he grew last year....but again, not going to keep going back and forth on that when its going nowhere.

He is playing better this year.   Ive admitted as much.   I hope he keeps getting better.    I still wouldnt give him an extension until he proves it longer.    Thats my whole point about him and Dupree.....they havent been playing at a high level long enough to warrant receiving long term contracts...IMO, at least.     

 

16 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Talent isn’t the issue, where he has struggled has been with consistency of things that are largely learned through experience (year 3 guy) and coaching. It’s why I believe that you see a young guy that’s constantly been around the football get more consistent in finishing the plays— I get working on a favorable extension while I still have the leverage. 

Again, I admit he is playing better this year, and if he keeps getting better, he might change how I feel about him.

Where we disagree is how he played during the 2017 season and whether or not he has earned an extension.

[MOSteelers56]

Yeah, @Dcash4,

I'm not sure what you were watching last year. Davis was putrid. I will willingly eat crow regarding him this year as he's played "above the line" but he was one of the worst starters on our defense last year. He was only not the worst starter on the field because that's how comically bad Mike Mitchell was. I don't care about how many tackles he had. He couldn't tackle or cover. 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

He couldn't tackle or cover. 

Yet he led his team, and largely his position, in both tackles and coverage stats. So for something he COULDNT DO, he seems to have actually done it, and done it often. 

You guys do get thats I’m arguing here, right?  I’m not saying he was good, I’m not even saying he was above average — but this idea that he was bad on the overwhelming amount is plays is incredibly incorrect. I understand the holes you can poke in stats (and mentioned it myself) but you MUST agree that they do carry SOME weight in showing how often a player is involved in games and the opportunities that they create. 

SOME of what he did was good, MORE of what he did was bad, but the overwhelming majority was.....average. You cannot convince me that on over 474 plays that he was bad last year, because that’s just inaccurate. 

Him and Shazier shared a lot of the same issues. They are both more reactionary than they were instinctual and took poor angles. It’s the reason they both end up high on the missed tackle list, they take bad angles and are late or out of position which makes it harder to finish plays. That weakness was exaggerated for him playing in the box where he had to make quicker decisions. It’s why I think it’s funny that people think he has vastly improved this year playing further away from the ball. In reality, he is largely the same player but being further away from the line allows him More opportunity to react and allow his athleticism to make the impact. 

It’s the idea that people refuse to admit that he did anything good or even average that just blows my mind. And the response is “i watched the game” because of thats your response....I’m really not sure you did. 

[3rivers]

6 hours ago, wwhickok said:

I agree with this and the Broken leg kind of scares me off.  ET hasn't exactly been healthy over the last couple seasons. 

I am significantly in favor of taking the cap penalty and cutting Burnett, I really felt this was a good signing when it first happened, man was I wrong, what a waste.

 

Someone I really Really hope hits FA and I hope the Steelers target hard AF is Landon Collins. 

 

Safeties that (currently) have expiring contracts at the end of this season (obviously they're not all going to hit FA)

Tyrann Mathieu

Earl Thomas

Landon Collins

Lamarcus Joyner

Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix

Adrian Phillips

The quality of those listed above varies obviously but I think Collins in our defense would be insane.  I have very little doubt he is going to head to FA, in fact I'd be stunned if he resigned with what is one of the worst teams in the NFL with horrible coaches and a disgruntled locker room.

 

A ILB I haven't seen mentioned, perhaps because of his injury this season, is Denzel Perryman.  Anyone got an opinion on him?

A Couple OLB's I'd like to see a couple opinions on are Eli Harold (might not get resigned by Detroit, who knows) and Jeremiah Attaochu (Idk if he'll get resigned by NYJ, he may)

Time is going fast, I never thought Perryman and Collins were going to be UFA.  Both would be on the list to sign for sure but we are set at ILB due to colbert's signings as you know. As for Collins, did the giants exercise the 5th year option on Collins? If not, he should be priority #1, not Thomas (age injury and possibly price plus he wants to play elsewhere )  .

Reports this season was that Perryman was excellent this year before the injury. Too bad colbert is dedicated to the signings he makes and as a result we will have the same LB's next year.

What do you think Collins will get for offers? I am sure we could afford it thanks to bell's cap rolling over  thanks again bell.

Is there a proven CB that is comparable to Haden (or better I suppose) that will be UFA and what will the cost be?

Priorities would be CB and S but if the right player becomes available at OLB (Justin Houston possible cap casualty, Brandon Graham) , then that would be in there as well.  Of course, like everyone here, I expect them to give dupree the 5th year option and don't agree with it at all.  Start playing half decent in a few games in your 4th year after robbing the team   with RD1 pay and then get 5th year option ? Why can't we all get  paid like that?

And NO to colbert bringing in mediocre at best UFA to start at areas that have been needs for quite a while .Burnett has been a disappointment and no more signings like that but it's what I expect from colbert now. The CB and Safety need legit starters, it's what's holding the team back and most likely what will be our exit in the playoffs unless our offence (which finally appears elite for now)  can win for us.

I have about given up on seeing a good D here again. I now have to expect the offence to win and hope for the best because colbert can co have wasted the D over the last few seasons and I can't expect them to draft good players  unless they for some reason fall. I don't think artie or coty should be on an active roster, yet they are starters here, uncontested at that