MVP Race

[MookieMonstah]

2 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Are people still going on about supporting cast?

Brees has three good options to lean on, Mahomes used too.

Breea has a much better OL and Defense.

Brees supporting cast>Mahomes very easly

This is such a bad take. Chiefs run game has been superior. Mahomes leads the league in YAC. Much better OL is pushing it, does anyone have the amount of pressures allowed? Chiefs run blocking is clearly on par with the Saints. Pass blocking the Saints get a nod but I don’t think it’s this huge discrepancy.

I can’t imagine any unbiased party taking the Saints supporting cast over Chiefs and let’s not pretend Hunt didn’t exist for 3/4 of the season.

 

[Chiefer]

12 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

This is such a bad take. Chiefs run game has been superior. Mahomes leads the league in YAC. Much better OL is pushing it, does anyone have the amount of pressures allowed? Chiefs run blocking is clearly on par with the Saints. Pass blocking the Saints get a nod but I don’t think it’s this huge discrepancy.

I can’t imagine any unbiased party taking the Saints supporting cast over Chiefs and let’s not pretend Hunt didn’t exist for 3/4 of the season.

 

Brees run game is superior hes got two great backs and a better OL. Chiefs barely have one.

Mahomes has been on 3rd string OL since week 4

And you still dont count defense for some reason. Mahones cannever have a bad game ever, or we lose easy because of the defense. Brees can have a stinker and his D keeps him in the game.

Mahomes gotta average 5 tds a game it feels like or chiefs lose.

 

[Jlowe22]

Saints did have the better oline certainly, but that advantage is gone with every Saints olineman listed on the injury report week 16.  Armstead especially has always been the anchor for that line.  When he goes down it hurts the whole unit.  Bushrod shouldn't be playing many snaps, but with him also hurt we move Peat to left tackle, and then start coming the holding calls killing drives.

Saints have the better RB tandem, but Chiefs were no slouches there IMO.

Saints for sure have the better defense there's no question there.

Chiefs have the better receiving corps.

 

[MookieMonstah]

1 hour ago, Chiefer said:

Brees run game is superior hes got two great backs and a better OL. Chiefs barely have one.

Mahomes has been on 3rd string OL since week 4

And you still dont count defense for some reason. Mahones cannever have a bad game ever, or we lose easy because of the defense. Brees can have a stinker and his D keeps him in the game.

Mahomes gotta average 5 tds a game it feels like or chiefs lose.

 

You keep using names. The Chiefs running game is averaging a higher YPC, so how do the Saints have a better run game?

Saints have a better defense but a high tempo, high scoring affair has only helped Mahomes put up these massive bulk stats. I don’t see how that can be used to prop him up.  Sure he has to score more to win games, but it’s also allowing him to put up these numbers while Brees has been in a ton of grind out games.

[Chiefer]

2 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

You keep using names. The Chiefs running game is averaging a higher YPC, so how do the Saints have a better run game?

Saints have a better defense but a high tempo, high scoring affair has only helped Mahomes put up these massive bulk stats. I don’t see how that can be used to prop him up.  Sure he has to score more to win games, but it’s also allowing him to put up these numbers while Brees has been in a ton of grind out games.

The reason i bring up individual talent is because looking at bulk stats for ypc doesnt tell the whole story. Mahomes rushing stats up the number by a good amount with scrambles.

Chiefs arent high tempo, im not confusing them for the 90s Bills. Mahomes is just a deep passer and weve got good speed(elite in Tyreeks case)

And just because Brees has struggled doesnt give him an excuse for "grind-it-out" games. We cant grind it out, even with Hunt we struggled to block properly to make that work.

I wish we could grind it out. Chiefs would be undefeated.

[MookieMonstah]

2 hours ago, Chiefer said:

The reason i bring up individual talent is because looking at bulk stats for ypc doesnt tell the whole story. Mahomes rushing stats up the number by a good amount with scrambles.

Chiefs arent high tempo, im not confusing them for the 90s Bills. Mahomes is just a deep passer and weve got good speed(elite in Tyreeks case)

And just because Brees has struggled doesnt give him an excuse for "grind-it-out" games. We cant grind it out, even with Hunt we struggled to block properly to make that work.

I wish we could grind it out. Chiefs would be undefeated.

Williams is averaging 5.3 YPC, so the Chiefs OL can quite obviously run block. Stop trying to downplay his supporting cast, the Chiefs have a good run game and elite receiving options and its certainly benefited Mahomes stats. A bad defense only helps Mahomes as well as they're still passing late into games, its definitely hurt the Chiefs W/L though.

[Chiefer]

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Williams is averaging 5.3 YPC, so the Chiefs OL can quite obviously run block. Stop trying to downplay his supporting cast, the Chiefs have a good run game and elite receiving options and its certainly benefited Mahomes stats. A bad defense only helps Mahomes as well as they're still passing late into games, its definitely hurt the Chiefs W/L though.

Hes only just recently started with minimal snaps working against tired defenses in week 16. Hes not a grinditout back like Mark Ingram. More Kamara to his game.

Now its a great running game. Youre being obtuse on purpose no further need to talk anymore.

[MookieMonstah]

26 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Hes only just recently started with minimal snaps working against tired defenses in week 16. Hes not a grinditout back like Mark Ingram. More Kamara to his game.

Now its a great running game. Youre being obtuse on purpose no further need to talk anymore.

I said good run game... I don't care what he is, he's averaging 5.3 YPC so stop acting like the Chiefs are struggling to run the ball.

[kingseanjohn]

8 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Saints did have the better oline certainly, but that advantage is gone with every Saints olineman listed on the injury report week 16. 

This week the Chiefs are playing their 3rd RG and 2nd LG. At one point it was their 3rd RG, 3rd C, 2nd LG.

And this week the 3 starters left are all on the injury report. (Fisher, Morse, Schwartz)

[Jakuvious]

10 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

This is such a bad take. Chiefs run game has been superior. Mahomes leads the league in YAC. Much better OL is pushing it, does anyone have the amount of pressures allowed? Chiefs run blocking is clearly on par with the Saints. Pass blocking the Saints get a nod but I don’t think it’s this huge discrepancy.

I can’t imagine any unbiased party taking the Saints supporting cast over Chiefs and let’s not pretend Hunt didn’t exist for 3/4 of the season.

 

I don't have pressures, but Mahomes has been hit literally more than twice as often as Brees. 103 hits for Mahomes, 6th most in the NFL, 50 hits for Brees, fewest in the NFL. The pass blocking is a substantial difference.

As for YPA, a substantial amount of the YPA gap between the two teams' running games is the difference between Brees and Mahomes. Mahomes brings up the average. Brees brings it way down.

[evilpimp972]

13 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I'd challenge you to watch the film of the game at Dallas, specifically, then subsequent games where the offense struggled. Brees' throws were on target (most of the time). He was literally hitting guys in the hands and face most of the game. So, sure, his STATS fell off, but if you actually watched the games, you'd see his players let him down. (see Trequan Smith's drop of a TD pass right to the eyes at the goal line)

Now, Brees crumbled in the 4th quarter, and if you'll look back through the myriad of post about this topic, you'll see the Brees fans pin that loss on him, even though it was just the 4th quarter that HE was bad.

That's where the big difference has come, in my opinion. Brees has only "cost" his team 1 victory, at Dallas. Whereas Mahomes, with his turnovers, has cost his team several wins. And, wins is what it's about, right? I mean, if Brees ends up 14-2 (franchise record) and Mahomes 12-4 or even 11-5, then what?

 

He missed some throws 

[Jakuvious]

14 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

And Keith Kirkwood was his #2 WR for a good stretch of games. Brees is throwing to MT and Kamara and then a bunch of dudes who wouldn’t have made the Chiefs final roster.

Thomas and Kamara have double the receptions of every other pass catcher on that team combined. Thomas is the only dude who gets separation. I don’t know why Chiefs fans act like it’s not a valid point to bring up Mahomes FAR superior supporting cast.

Keith Kirkwood started 1 game, officially. That's actually less than Demarcus Robinson.

The difference in weapons is not what you're making it out to be. On paper, to start the season, it absolutely was. Our starting group of Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt was ridiculous. Until Watkins wound up missing half the season. And Hunt got suspended. Now I'll give you that the Hunt bit was recent. But it still means most of the season, we had two guys doing the vast majority of the work as receivers, Hill and Kelce. Elite threats, but it was mostly those two. They were to KC what Thomas and Kamara are to NO. Past that we had a great runner who was good in spots as a receiver in Hunt. A better version of Ingram. Once you get past those three, neither team has any all-stars, though. Half a season of Watkins winds up being about as feast or famine as what Tre'Quan Smith offered. Conley is a reliable but unremarkable target, same with Demarcus Robinson. They offer no more to us at WR than Ben Watson and Josh Hill offered at TE.

Both teams had 2 - 3 top tier weapons, and then a mix of meh and inconsistent behind it. Our depth was a bit better, even factoring in Watkins and Hunt vanishing in their own ways. But it's not like one side was elite and the other was struggling. You make it sound like having two elite pass catchers in Thomas and Kamara means they're lacking. Two elite pass catchers is two more than most of the league has.

[Soko]

29 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I don't have pressures, but Mahomes has been hit literally more than twice as often as Brees. 103 hits for Mahomes, 6th most in the NFL, 50 hits for Brees, fewest in the NFL. The pass blocking is a substantial difference.

The run blocking isn’t exactly even, either. The Chiefs get off more yards per pop (which is more of a product of Hill/Kelce’s ability to threaten the deep/intermediate, IMO) but the Saints have more total yards, more TDs (with a higher TD%), more first downs (similar %), and better run stuff %.

Gap might not be as big as the difference in pass protection, but there’s a gap. The end product being that the Saints have one of the best OLs in the league this year. 

 

[MookieMonstah]

34 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I don't have pressures, but Mahomes has been hit literally more than twice as often as Brees. 103 hits for Mahomes, 6th most in the NFL, 50 hits for Brees, fewest in the NFL. The pass blocking is a substantial difference.

As for YPA, a substantial amount of the YPA gap between the two teams' running games is the difference between Brees and Mahomes. Mahomes brings up the average. Brees brings it way down.

Again, that doesn't explain Williams running for a 5.6 YPC. Can we call a spade a spade. The Chiefs OL can clearly run block, as you pointed out they clearly struggle in pass protection but Mahomes scrambling and unwillingness to throw the ball away (which often benefits him) is a big reason for the large QB hit number. Pretty fair to say in terms of run blocking the OLs are similar, in terms of pass blocking the Saints have a clear edge.

It still doesn't disprove the notion that Mahomes has a far better superior cast...Running games are both good-great, Chiefs weapons are far better at getting YAC.

[MookieMonstah]

28 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Keith Kirkwood started 1 game, officially. That's actually less than Demarcus Robinson.

The difference in weapons is not what you're making it out to be. On paper, to start the season, it absolutely was. Our starting group of Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt was ridiculous. Until Watkins wound up missing half the season. And Hunt got suspended. Now I'll give you that the Hunt bit was recent. But it still means most of the season, we had two guys doing the vast majority of the work as receivers, Hill and Kelce. Elite threats, but it was mostly those two. They were to KC what Thomas and Kamara are to NO. Past that we had a great runner who was good in spots as a receiver in Hunt. A better version of Ingram. Once you get past those three, neither team has any all-stars, though. Half a season of Watkins winds up being about as feast or famine as what Tre'Quan Smith offered. Conley is a reliable but unremarkable target, same with Demarcus Robinson. They offer no more to us at WR than Ben Watson and Josh Hill offered at TE.

Both teams had 2 - 3 top tier weapons, and then a mix of meh and inconsistent behind it. Our depth was a bit better, even factoring in Watkins and Hunt vanishing in their own ways. But it's not like one side was elite and the other was struggling. You make it sound like having two elite pass catchers in Thomas and Kamara means they're lacking. Two elite pass catchers is two more than most of the league has.

You can twist what you want, Mahomes leads the league in YAC by a WIDE margin. He has better weapons and they're absolutely helping him put up these great numbers. Both guys have an argument for MVP, so obviously its going to come down to splitting hairs. Brees has succeeded with less around him, and holds the better record. I think thats the advantage he has here. Obviously Mahomes has the big time numbers.