Le'Veon Bell -Farewell Miami

[jrry32]

25 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

The Steelers attempted to structure the Bell deal the *exact* same way they do every other core player's they sign, outside their QB deals. It was not a PR move. Saying no top player would sign is just bogus because they have a number of top players who sign contracts just like the one they offered him. They rarely have any issue signing any of their top players. There was Wallace, and there was Bell.

By the same metrics people use to attack the Bell offer, Antonio Brown must have been stupid to sign his deal. He only got $19 million guaranteed at signing. That was only half of Beckham's!

The argument here is that the Steelers might have dumped Bell after, what, one year of his contract? Something they've never done before with one of their core guys? Or after year 2?

That's a misleading statement, CK. The Steelers generally use large signing bonuses to give players security after Year 1. They were offering Bell a lower signing bonus along with a roster bonus in Year 1 according to Matts' article. That is an offer designed not to give him security after Year 1. He gets paid well upfront, but he has no security after Year 1.

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

You arent following along. 

$20M signing bonus. 

Year one salary + any other bonus GTD

This alegedly got him to ~$22m in GTD money

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Year two it would cost them a min of $16m in dead money. Which no team would do.

So now his year 2 salary + and other bonus is GTD

This got him to $33m in GTD money

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Year 3 it would cost them $12m in dead money to cut him, which it is super unlikely any team would do.

This got him to $45m in GTD money, which means there woud have been no cap savings at all to cutting him.

He likely also had all $45m GTD against injury. 

 

So again, $45m GTD and $70m total. His salaries the last two years would have been $12.5m vs $8m in total prorated bonus. So again, he would have been cheap and likely to earn that money. 

You aren't following along. Your article says $10 million signing bonus and a $10 million roster bonus. Roster bonuses are not prorated. Signing bonuses are. What does that mean? Well, here's a guesstimate of what that contract could look like using round numbers:

Year 1: $1m base $2m prorated signing bonus $10m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $20m) - $13m cap hit (Real Cash Value: $21m)

Year 2: $8m base $2m prorated signing bonus $5 million roster bonus (dead money if cut: $8m) - $15m cap hit ($7m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $34m)

 Year 3: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus $3m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $6m) - $15m cap hit ($9m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $47m)

Year 4: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus $3m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $4m) - $15m cap hit ($11m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $60m)

Year 5: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus $2m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $2m) - $14m cap hit ($12m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $72m)

Now, maybe the Year 2 or the Years 2 and 3 base salaries are guaranteed for injury, but that's really not doing a lot for Bell. He can be cut for performance reasons at any time after Year 1.

[Matts4313]

11 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You aren't following along. Your article says $10 million signing bonus and a $10 million roster bonus. Roster bonuses are not prorated. Signing bonuses are. What does that mean? Well, here's a guesstimate of what that contract could look like using round numbers:

Year 1: $1m base $2m prorated signing bonus $10m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $20m) - $13m cap hit (Real Cash Value: $21m)

Year 2: $8m base $2m prorated signing bonus $5 million roster bonus (dead money if cut: $8m) - $15m cap hit ($7m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $34m)

 Year 3: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus $3m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $6m) - $15m cap hit ($9m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $47m)

Year 4: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus $1m roster bonus (dead money if cut: $4m) - $13m cap hit ($9m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $60m)

Year 5: $10m base $2m prorated signing bonus (dead money if cut: $2m) - $12m cap hit ($10m saved if cut) (Real Cash Value: $72m)

Now, maybe the Year 2 or the Years 2 and 3 base salaries are guaranteed for injury, but that's really not doing a lot for Bell. He can be cut for performance reasons at any time after Year 1.

I did miss that it was a roster bonus. 

I remember Pat Kirwin breaking down the information he got from the agent negotiating it and he made it clear that a large % (50%ish) was GTD at signing, it just wasnt paid at signing. There are a lot of creative ways to put in guarantees and we are speculating at best.

 

Contracts can have injury GTDs

Contracts can have GTD annual salaries.

Contracts can have GTD roster bonus that are post applicable. IE - if he is on the roster in 2018, everything is GTD in 2019. So on and so forth. 

 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I did miss that it was a roster bonus. 

I remember Pat Kirwin breaking down the information he got from the agent negotiating it and he made it clear that a large % (50ish) was GTD at signing, it just was paid at signing. There are a lot of creative ways to put in guarantees and we are speculating at best.

 

Contracts can have injury GTDs

Contracts can have GTD annual salaries.

Contracts can have GTD roster bonus that are post applicable. IE - if he is on the roster in 2018, everything is GTD in 2019. So on and so forth. 

 

Injury guarantees just aren't an adequate substitute when you have no full guarantees after Year 1. And from all of the articles on the subject, it doesn't look like Bell was fully guaranteed anything after Year 1 nor were there clauses that guaranteed the next year during the previous year. The consensus seems to be that the Steelers offered a lot of Year 1 cash along with some injury guarantees and guarantees/bonuses that wouldn't vest until early in each league year.

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

Injury guarantees just aren't an adequate substitute when you have no full guarantees after Year 1. And from all of the articles on the subject, it doesn't look like Bell was fully guaranteed anything after Year 1 nor were there clauses that guaranteed the next year during the previous year. The consensus seems to be that the Steelers offered a lot of Year 1 cash along with some injury guarantees and guarantees/bonuses that wouldn't vest until early in each league year.

The contract wasnt signed and submitted to the league office, so as far as I know the only people who know the nitty grity on the contract are the Steelers team and the Bell team. 

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

The contract wasnt signed and submitted to the league office, so as far as I know the only people who know the nitty grity on the contract are the Steelers team and the Bell team. 

And both sides obviously have a motive to leak information when it makes them look good. Just saying.

[CKSteeler]

47 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

That's a misleading statement, CK. The Steelers generally use large signing bonuses to give players security after Year 1. They were offering Bell a lower signing bonus along with a roster bonus in Year 1 according to Matts' article. That is an offer designed not to give him security after Year 1. He gets paid well upfront, but he has no security after Year 1.

It isn't misleading. We don't have the full numbers, But the latest ones that have leaked would have paid Bell $20 million in 2018. The Steelers typically like to keep their signing bonus low. They like to be able to restructure. You dismiss guarantees against injury - what else does Bell have to worry about? Oh, right. There's his issues in the past with marijuana. And he didn't really have his most efficient year last year.

The Steelers have a number of marquee players who sign deals just like the one offered to Bell. I didn't mislead anyone on that subject matter. If you think this was a PR move, you don't understand how the Steelers operate. They avoid paying large signing bonuses to everyone outside the QB position. But they have one of if not the best track records of patience with their contracts. Rarely do they dump someone they invested in, let alone one of their own guys who they drafted and developed. They gave Lamar Woodley, a guy who ate himself out of the league, 2.5 years. Only half a season of which involved him consistently playing. But they were going to cut Bell? He wouldn't have gotten all of his roster bonus?

That may sound like a quaint notion, but most agents and players seem to buy into it because this isn't a team that has issues signing it's guys.

Bell was a Tomlin favorite. Probably second to Antonio Brown. The entire franchise loved him. Argue on Bell's behalf all you want, but the Steelers did not negotiate in bad faith or make a final offer as a PR move. That's not naivety. They really wanted to sign this guy.

[kramxel]

Any way you spin it, this outcome isn't a positive one for either the NFL or the NFLPA.

This could open the door for more changes in the next CBA.

 

[jrry32]

20 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

It isn't misleading. We don't have the full numbers, But the latest ones that have leaked would have paid Bell $20 million in 2018. The Steelers typically like to keep their signing bonus low. They like to be able to restructure. You dismiss guarantees against injury - what else does Bell have to worry about? Oh, right. There's his issues in the past with marijuana. And he didn't really have his most efficient year last year.

The Steelers have a number of marquee players who sign deals just like the one offered to Bell. I didn't mislead anyone on that subject matter. If you think this was a PR move, you don't understand how the Steelers operate. They avoid paying large signing bonuses to everyone outside the QB position. But they have one of if not the best track records of patience with their contracts. Rarely do they dump someone they invested in, let alone one of their own guys who they drafted and developed. They gave Lamar Woodley, a guy who ate himself out of the league, 2.5 years. Only half a season of which involved him consistently playing. But they were going to cut Bell? He wouldn't have gotten all of his roster bonus?

That may sound like a quaint notion, but most agents and players seem to buy into it because this isn't a team that has issues signing it's guys.

Bell was a Tomlin favorite. Probably second to Antonio Brown. The entire franchise loved him. Argue on Bell's behalf all you want, but the Steelers did not negotiate in bad faith or make a final offer as a PR move. That's not naivety. They really wanted to sign this guy.

Here are how the numbers compare:

Bell - 5 years $70 million ($10 million SB)

Brown - 4 years $68 million ($19 million SB)

Pouncey - 5 years $44 million ($13 million SB)

Heyward - 6 years $59.5 million ($12 million SB)

DeCastro - 5 years $50 million ($16 million SB)

Tuitt - 5 years $60 million ($13 million SB)

Simply put, the Steelers may have wanted to sign Bell, but they didn't want to sign him that badly. If they had, they would have offered him more security.

[CKSteeler]

I actually wish the Steelers were low balling Bell in the hopes of ditching him for some higher compensation. That would have been the smart move. One I'd have signed off on. Because we're talking about a guy who has consistently ended seasons 'injured.' One who was suspended twice, and repeatedly rapped about his contract demands and who frankly was never as good as he was made out to be. Todd Gurley is a cleaner, more explosive player. Bell is a guy the Steelers drafted in R2 and had to reshape (literally) to become the player he is now.

But that's bogus. Even Leveon's agent stated outright that the initial reports of "only" $10 million guaranteed were bogus. He flat out said Rappaport's reporting was inaccurate. And the way it was actually:

Quote

And as to the notion that only $10 million would have been fully guaranteed, at a time when the 2018 franchise tender for Bell is $14.54 million, the package included a $10 million roster bonus due not long after signing, making the practical guarantee $20 million. The Steelers would have avoided that payment only by cutting Bell within days after giving him $10 million to sign.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/10/05/steelers-offered-leveon-bell-47-million-over-three-years/

The $10 million signing bonus argument never made sense for a player on his second tag.

The players you listed, sans Tuitt, had fewer flags than Bell did. Brown, while being a bit of a diva, is maybe the hardest working player in the league. The Steelers effectively gave Bell more guaranteed money right up front.

You can believe what you want. I'm happy at the outcome. I didn't want this guy signed long term. But it's ridiculous to suggest the Steelers were making just a PR move. The franchise loved this guy. Most of the fans loved him.

Any team signing Bell really should ask themselves, though, what they're getting. Not just on the field, but off of it. What the hell is he so scared of? Or what is it that he actually wants long term?

[Soko]

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

^^^ From 2016

Todd Gurleys contract.....

^^^^  Great breakdown on how you can have rolling guarantees. 

 

Problem is that the first year in that contract is really the only one with any sort of weight. I’ll give you the possibility of injury $, but Pittsburgh still has the ability to dump him after 2018 with little financial debt.

[jrry32]

8 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

The Steelers effectively gave Bell more guaranteed money right up front.

Guaranteed money only matters if it's buying you security in future years.

[CKSteeler]

17 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Guaranteed money only matters if it's buying you security in future years.

I mean, we were just talking signing bonuses. The Steelers would have paid Bell, within days of signing his contract, $20 million. More than they paid anyone outside the QB.

I don't see many teams fully guaranteeing more than that to guys like Bell. Gurley, only 23 and with less wear and tear and character flags, didn't receive any actual $45 million in full guarantees. He in fact only received $21.95 guaranteed at signing. What constituted the rest for Gurley? Roster bonuses and injury guarantees - the things you are maligning now. If anyone played the PR game, it was the Rams and Gurley's agent.

Bell tweeted about that contract, but it wasn't all that different from what the Steelers put forward. Bell also said he'd like Mack money. He's going to aim for significantly higher than what Gurley got. But the deal the Steelers offered wasn't all that different than what the Rams offered, despite not being a team with a new stadium in the largest media market in the league with one of the wealthiest owners.

Bell was offered a more than fair deal. But Bell isn't interested in what's fair for his position. What I'd really like to do is bet on how much money Bell will actually make when it's all said and done versus what he lost by just showing up this year, even if he didn't want to take the Steelers offer. He's Mike Wallace 2.0.

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

I mean, we were just talking signing bonuses. The Steelers would have paid Bell, within days of signing his contract, $20 million. More than they paid anyone outside the QB.

And then could have bailed on the contract after that one season if they desired.

Quote

I don't see many teams fully guaranteeing more than that to guys like Bell. Gurley, only 23 and with less wear and tear and character flags, didn't receive any actual $45 million in full guarantees. He in fact only received $21.95 guaranteed at signing. What constituted the rest for Gurley? Roster bonuses and injury guarantees - the things you are maligning now. If anyone played the PR game, it was the Rams and Gurley's agent.

Bell tweeted about that contract, but it wasn't all that different from what the Steelers put forward. Bell also said he'd like Mack money. He's going to aim for significantly higher than what Gurley got. But the deal the Steelers offered wasn't all that different than what the Rams offered, despite not being a team with a new stadium in the largest media market in the league with one of the wealthiest owners.

Todd Gurley's new contract guaranteed him two years. And Gurley was in a different position than Bell because he was on his rookie contract. He signed a team-friendly deal because the Rams extended him two years before he could hit FA. Bell was in a very different situation.

[CKSteeler]

6 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

And then could have bailed on the contract after that one season if they desired.

My argument was simple. They structured that deal they do every other core player they have. You said they lowballed him because of the signing bonus, but the reality is he would have gotten $20 million almost instantly. More than those other players. We have shifting goal posts here.

What would it take for the Steelers to cut Bell after one year? I want to hear the issues. How badly would he have had to play for skill to factor into it, in your view? What extra security did Gurley get that Bell didn't? There's really not much difference, despite the Rams basically negotiating off of the Steelers offer to Bell.

7 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Todd Gurley's new contract guaranteed him two years. And Gurley was in a different position than Bell because he was on his rookie contract. He signed a team-friendly deal because the Rams extended him two years before he could hit FA. Bell was in a very different situation.

This is the third year of negotiating with Bell, who was a second round pick. They don't do any contract more than 1 year out. This is a misleading comment.

I feel more like this is a forced argument. Someone practicing lawyering rather than making a legitimate argument. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I'm not here to renegotiate something I'm not part of. I'm just going to point and laugh at the moron Leveon Bell who, for his part, is dumb enough to actually think he's as valuable as, say, Roethlisberger and should be paid as such. He isn't and never was. He's not as valuable as a QB. His skill set, unlike Mack's, isn't that hard to replace.

He's going to sign some deal that will be massively inflated in the media. Lots of talk about guarantees and average per year figure. It will likely be a poor team that does this, like the Jets. Ultimately, he won't earn what he would have with the Steelers because he's going to a less stable franchise and isn't as good as he thinks he is. Some new regime will cut him in 2-3 years and he'll have earned less than he would have had he signed the contract the Steelers offered.

This is why it's wise for clients to speak up to their lawyers. But Bell aint wise. Off the football field, he's basically functionally retarded.