Best WR in AFC, Brown or Hopkins

[ET80]

1 hour ago, BlaqOptic said:

That wasn't my argument at all.

What was your argument then? 

[BlaqOptic]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

What was your argument then? 

That what Hopkins is projected to put up this year with Watson - who is every bit as good as all but two years of Ben in the last 5 years - isn't what Brown put up in his peak years. Is Nuk better going forward? More than likely. Is he the better option, right now? I am not so sure to believe that as Brown even in his down year is putting up numbers that would be All-Pro worthy in any other year.

[43M]

I love how every time there is a comparison between Brown and another WR, people use the fact that Brown plays with Ben to discredit him.

I love Hopkins and always have...but if you must compare him to Brown and ask who is better, please come up with a better argument than "Brown has played with a better QB", because its a weak argument.     Not saying that it doesnt have any merit whatsoever when discussing their stats, but in no way does it prove anything in regards to who is better.

 

[SmittyBacall]

4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I love how every time there is a comparison between Brown and another WR, people use the fact that Brown plays with Ben to discredit him.

But it's not discrediting Brown. How could you possibly deny playing with a future HOF is not advantageous for Brown? How is it not advantageous to consistently play in a top 10 offense (which I understand Brown contributes to)? It's an advantage certain players in the field lack. It's indisputable. 

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"Brown has played with a better QB", because its a weak argument.

It really isn't. 

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Not saying that it doesnt have any merit whatsoever when discussing their stats, but in no way does it prove anything in regards to who is better.

So what, in your opinion, makes Brown better? There are things Brown can do that Hopkins can't and vice versa. What are your standards for who is better?

[ET80]

13 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

That what Hopkins is projected to put up this year with Watson - who is every bit as good as all but two years of Ben in the last 5 years - isn't what Brown put up in his peak years. Is Nuk better going forward? More than likely. Is he the better option, right now? I am not so sure to believe that as Brown even in his down year is putting up numbers that would be All-Pro worthy in any other year.

Interestingly enough, we're at a very unique time - Watson/Hopkins have played in 16 games together (15 starts, one 2nd half appearance) so we have an idea of what a full season looks like with these two:

2017 (6.5 games for Watson): 45/606/7

2018 (through nine games): 63/894/7

Carry the one and you've got 108/1500/14 for Hopkins. So, initial review tells me receptions and yards are in Browns favor (2014 and 2015, specifically) but Hopkins' TD totals are higher than any single year for Brown (with this year as a potential breakthrough for Brown, as he's at 10 right now). 

Ultimately, depends on how you want to look at it - the extra 21/198 from Brown's 2014 campaign gives him the lead in those two fields, but Hopkins' extra TD would close the gap. 2015 has a more noticable 28/334 gap in favor of Brown, but those extra 4 TDs for Hopkins are sizable. Pretty much every other campaign by Brown, however? "Equal" to the first 16 of Watson to Hopkins (but I'm open to hear arguments that would state otherwise).

[ET80]

7 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I love how every time there is a comparison between Brown and another WR, people use the fact that Brown plays with Ben to discredit him.

I love Hopkins and always have...but if you must compare him to Brown and ask who is better, please come up with a better argument than "Brown has played with a better QB", because its a weak argument.     Not saying that it doesnt have any merit whatsoever when discussing their stats, but in no way does it prove anything in regards to who is better.

 

In perpetuity, I agree with this. However, with this specific argument, it holds value:

- If you're comparing Brown to Julio, yeah. For arguments sake, we'll concede that Ben and Matt Ryan are indistinguishable as far a QB quality is concerned.

- If you're comparing Brown to Odell, well... The last 18 months has seen a sharp regression in Eli Manning, but for arguments sake, we'll call it sort of even.

- If you're comparing Brown to Michael Thomas, we'll actually give Thomas the advantage with Drew Brees as his QB.

- If you're comparing Brown to AJ Green, well... You're testing the limits of arguments sake on that one, but sure. At times, Andy Dalton has been above average, it's a "wash" I'd say (and that's a stretch).

- If you're comparing Brown to Hopkins (as we are here) you ABSOLUTELY have to reference the quality of QB play because Hopkins has been dealing with CFL quality QB play up until recently - not even quality backup QB play. TJ Yates? Tom Savage? Ryan Mallet? Brock Osweiler? Bryan Hoyer? These are guys who were either out of the league shortly after their Houston gig, or struggling to make a 53 man roster as a backup. If in some strange roster move the Steelers cut Ben, he's unemployed for about two hours max, and has competing offers for his service - something you can't say for any Texans QB not named Deshaun Watson.

There's a significant difference between the guys Hopkins has worked with and the guys Brown has worked with. These Texans' QBs are Landry Jones-level QBs, guys who really had no business being starting QBs to begin with. Yet, Hopkins put up some All Pro seasons with each guy listed.

[TXsteeler]

31 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Ultimately, depends on how you want to look at it - the extra 21/198 from Brown's 2014 campaign gives him the lead in those two fields, but Hopkins' extra TD would close the gap.

This is pretty nit picky but 1 TD is not equal to 21 catches for 198 yards.

32 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Pretty much every other campaign by Brown, however? "Equal" to the first 16 of Watson to Hopkins (but I'm open to hear arguments that would state otherwise).

But Brown has done it how many times compared to once for Hopkins? Not that I doubt Hopkins can continue to produce, but Brown has produced at a very high level for an incredibly rare length of time, and while he is having a slow start to the year he is still on pace for 100 receptions, 1200 yards, and nearly 18 TDs this year.

[ET80]

20 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

This is pretty nit picky but 1 TD is not equal to 21 catches for 198 yards.

Perhaps "close the gap" is the wrong phrase. "Makes it close" is better, because I'll concede your view on 21/198.

20 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

But Brown has done it how many times compared to once for Hopkins?

This circles back to the QB argument - those 16 games are the first 16 games where Hopkins had a top 30 QB at his disposal. Pretty much every QB Hopkins has worked with has an argument as the worst starting QB in the league at that time. As discussed earlier, Hopkins has been working with guys who are basically out of the league, or fighting for backup QB jobs behind Ryan Tannehill of all people. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Case Keenum are below average starters, and they represent the best QBs that Hopkins played with prior to Deshaun Watson (and Fitz/Keenum played a combined 14 games in 2014 with Hopkins, so not exactly a great sample size to lean on). 

Also, to answer your question on how many times - 2014, as the #2 behind Andre Johnson (76/1,210/6). 2015, as the #1WR (111/1,521/11). Last season (96/1378/13). 

Those were very impressive seasons - especially considering the QB situation in Houston.

[ET80]

On 11/9/2018 at 7:41 PM, BlaqOptic said:

Still don't know if Nuk would have a season is capable of having seasons akin to what AB did in 2014, 2015, and 2017 to be honest.

To circle back on this - I'll give you 2014 and 2015 (by a nominal margin) but I'd say that the first 16 with Watson/Hopkins is actually better than Browns' 2017, with Hopkins holding advantages in receptions and TDs and only down 33 yards receiving.

[43M]

6 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

But it's not discrediting Brown.

Its absolutely discrediting him because of the QB he plays with.   

6 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

How could you possibly deny playing with a future HOF is not advantageous for Brown? How is it not advantageous to consistently play in a top 10 offense (which I understand Brown contributes to)? It's an advantage certain players in the field lack. It's indisputable. 

  I never once said it wasnt advantageous.  I said its stupid to use the QB argument when discussing who is a BETTER WR.   If we are discussing statistical production, sure....but statistical production alone doesnt make a player better than another.

 

6 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

It really isn't. 

Again, yes it is....when discussing who is the better player.     

6 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

So what, in your opinion, makes Brown better? There are things Brown can do that Hopkins can't and vice versa. What are your standards for who is better?

Show me where I said Brown is better... 

 

[KellChippy]

It’s so close that I would choose based on team needs. I would add Brown to the Eagles current roster. A team like the Browns could probably benefit more right now from Hopkins skill set.

[SmittyBacall]

29 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

  I never once said it wasnt advantageous.  I said its stupid to use the QB argument when discussing who is a BETTER WR.   If we are discussing statistical production, sure....but statistical production alone doesnt make a player better than another.

Here's the thing about these rankings though - they're almost entirely based on production. Production is the reason why players drastically rise and fall so rapidly in these lists throughout the years. Receivers can have great, mediocre, and bad seasons statistically. But their talent remains constant (generally speaking, with players in and around their prime). Let's be real, no one here, not even me, studies every receiver in the field to come up with valid rankings based on talent. Most people, and justifiably so, just go by the numbers. It's easy to do. But it's not necessary the correct way to evaluate. 

I think you're wrong in assuming AB wearing the receiving crown has more to do with his talent than his production. The reason AB is/was universally the consensus top receiver wasn't just uni-dimensional because he's incredibly talented (more so than the next receiver). He's ranked that high because he's incredibly talented and he's incredibly productive. 

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Its absolutely discrediting him because of the QB he plays with.   

I don't think so. Big Ben just maximizes his ability to produce more so than some of his arguably equally talented peers. But what separates him for most people - again, generally speaking -  is his production. Which is obviously elevated by HOF QB play. He'd be as great as a receiver with or without Ben. I'm not discrediting that. 

[ET80]

Won't dive into everything, but will ask this:

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

If we are discussing statistical production, sure....but statistical production alone doesnt make a player better than another.

What are we judging these guys on, then?

[TXsteeler]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Won't dive into everything, but will ask this:

What are we judging these guys on, then?

Qualitative attributes?

[ET80]

55 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

Qualitative attributes?

Given what I know about the people in these parts, this argument would quickly turn into a stats discussion.

Either that or a gif battle.