NightTrainLane Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Yep it's a pure copout. I'm pretty sure a lot of people know plenty about the role coaching plays, what a coach is responsible for, including playcalling, coaching up players, scheming around players strengths rather than the other way around, etc. How do you know that KNJ won't be fired, if you don't know anything about coaching? It's not a copout. I just choose not to retread the same topics over and over. I don't know KNJ won't be fired. It's called an opinion. What I meant by us not knowing anything about coaching is we don't know anything about what is being taught, if someone is messing up, if something is being changed or adjusted or held back. We don't know the techniques being taught or the guys that have trouble with them. We don't know teaching styles or even the how much of the scheme is being given to the players at this point or how much we are willing to show. We don't know if communication issues are player errors or scheme errors or just the offense beating us. And half the time we can watch a play and come away with an entirely wrong conclusion as to why something happened in the play and after watching it again from another angle or slowed down we see it something new. I used the simple term "we know nothing about coaching" as a generalization that you took literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 10 hours ago, latinraraiderfan 3 said: ok, well talk at the end of the season if you have the guts of not bloking me to see who was right , accept ? Why would I block you? I'm a mod and ruffling feathers tickles your fancy. Kinda counter-intuitive, no? Sure, I'm always down to talk. Although I feel like there might be a line of posters ahead of me trying to get a word in first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Anyways things are getting a bit heated in here and I would just like to remind everyone that there's still time before the season starts and that things can improve. No need to be at each other's throats already. Re-lax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 37 minutes ago, Silver&Black88 said: Anyways things are getting a bit heated in here and I would just like to remind everyone that there's still time before the season starts and that things can improve. No need to be at each other's throats already. Re-lax. Not really heated. I just find it strange that people find coaching to be something that isn't at least somewhat transparent/evident, as a lot of people here understand football, have played football, and can tell when things are well/poorly executed called and when a scheme doesn't fit players' strengths . And I generally always question opinions I disagree with, e.g. 4-5 years to build a defense/install a scheme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Not really heated. I just find it strange that people find coaching to be something that isn't at least somewhat transparent/evident, as a lot of people here understand football, have played football, and can tell when things are well/poorly executed called and when a scheme doesn't fit players' strengths . And I generally always question opinions I disagree with, e.g. 4-5 years to build a defense/install a scheme Clever attempt to ignore my response...well, not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 What I meant by us not knowing anything about coaching is we don't know anything about what is being taught, if someone is messing up, if something is being changed or adjusted or held back. 30 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: We don't know the techniques being taught or the guys that have trouble with them. You're right. We don't know the techniques they're being taught. 30 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: We don't know teaching styles or even the how much of the scheme is being given to the players at this point or how much we are willing to show. Ok so a teaching style not leading to results is still a bad teaching style. How much of a scheme is given to players? If players aren't given the defensive playbook immediately and asked to learn the majority, if not all of it from the time they join the team to when the season starts, I guess I know nothing about football. 30 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: We don't know if communication issues are player errors or scheme errors or just the offense beating us. Communication issues generally have nothing to do with scheme. They are usually on the player. However, poor coaching can lead to poor communication. Good defensive coaches have disciplined units that don't miss tackles, play out of position, and bite on play action fakes. Discipline is not the same as talent. A defensive coordinator's responsibility is to keep his squad disciplined, fit a scheme to players, and get results on the field. Those are not ambiguous whatsoever. We don't know what happens behind the scenes, but coordinators live and die on the results of their squad/position group. If your defense is awful year after year, despite money and draft picks being invested, one of three things are generally true. 1. Your GM isn't good at finding talent on the defensive side of the ball. 2. Your defensive coordinator isn't good at fitting talented players to a scheme after their strengths. He isn't capable of developing young talent either and helping teach good habits regarding. 3. Your head coach is handling the defense and he isn't a good defensive mind, hence he needs to be replaced at some point or the team will be held back. Or somewhere in between. Still, I have enough faith in what Mckenzie has brought in to see better results. 30 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: And half the time we can watch a play and come away with an entirely wrong conclusion as to why something happened in the play and after watching it again from another angle or slowed down we see it something new. You're right. But this isn't nearly always the case. 2 deep safeties is still 2 deep safeties. Against a goal line set, can you think of any reason why someone would do that? Have you ever seen a successful goal line play with 2 deep safeties far off the LOS? Last year, the Chiefs abused us by shifting their tight end and changing the direction of run plays. The linebackers and defensive lineman didn't move and adjust well along the line. In that one game, sure, that's on the players. But Norton and the staff should have learned from those mistakes and drilled that information into the players heads to be aware of shifts and the like. I can't blame Norton for Carrie biting on the fake. I can blame someone for their being no shallow dropped zone defenders on plays where Carrie had outside leverage and was expecting help inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: Clever attempt to ignore my response...well, not really. Easy does it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: What I meant by us not knowing anything about coaching is we don't know anything about what is being taught, if someone is messing up, if something is being changed or adjusted or held back. You're right. We don't know the techniques they're being taught. Ok so a teaching style not leading to results is still a bad teaching style. How much of a scheme is given to players? If players aren't given the defensive playbook immediately and asked to learn the majority, if not all of it from the time they join the team to when the season starts, I guess I know nothing about football. Communication issues generally have nothing to do with scheme. They are usually on the player. However, poor coaching can lead to poor communication. Good defensive coaches have disciplined units that don't miss tackles, play out of position, and bite on play action fakes. Discipline is not the same as talent. A defensive coordinator's responsibility is to keep his squad disciplined, fit a scheme to players, and get results on the field. Those are not ambiguous whatsoever. We don't know what happens behind the scenes, but coordinators live and die on the results of their squad/position group. If your defense is awful year after year, despite money and draft picks being invested, one of three things are generally true. 1. Your GM isn't good at finding talent on the defensive side of the ball. 2. Your defensive coordinator isn't good at fitting talented players to a scheme after their strengths. He isn't capable of developing young talent either and helping teach good habits regarding. 3. Your head coach is handling the defense and he isn't a good defensive mind, hence he needs to be replaced at some point or the team will be held back. Or somewhere in between. Still, I have enough faith in what Mckenzie has brought in to see better results. You're right. But this isn't nearly always the case. 2 deep safeties is still 2 deep safeties. Against a goal line set, can you think of any reason why someone would do that? Have you ever seen a successful goal line play with 2 deep safeties far off the LOS? Last year, the Chiefs abused us by shifting their tight end and changing the direction of run plays. The linebackers and defensive lineman didn't move and adjust well along the line. In that one game, sure, that's on the players. But Norton and the staff should have learned from those mistakes and drilled that information into the players heads to be aware of shifts and the like. I can't blame Norton for Carrie biting on the fake. I can blame someone for their being no shallow dropped zone defenders on plays where Carrie had outside leverage and was expecting help inside. How do you know the teaching style is the reason for not getting the results? Maybe it works for some and not others. Maybe it takes time for some to grasp the concepts. Maybe some aren't focused at the time or on a certain play. Yes, players get the whole playbook and are taught the whole scheme but when you are installing a defense and training up rookies and young players you piece meal the scheme aspects and as they get one part then you move on. Admittedly, I don't know this is the case with us, the same as you don't know the process, what some have trouble with and how it is being addressed. There are a whole lot of grey areas and variable that are at play that affect your section on communication including injuries, practice time, team cap philosophy and future cap concerns (when it relates to adding players), how the draft order falls and then how picks develop. All these things and more go into an equation of sorts and then Reggie and JDR have to weight the results with those variables. My position is and will continue to be that they have the best info to make the best decisions and I trust them to weight all the small things vs the big picture as they do it. It's easy to play armchair qb and breakdown one goal line play and say it's a systemic issue. I for one would rather be patient considering all the factors that could be contributing to our defensive struggles. We need to stay the course and allow these young players we have drafted to grow together under consistent scheme. Lastly that statement about the Carrie play was just ridiculous. Just go back and watch it. Nelson and the LBs were inside in shallow coverage. Carrie was in man and got pushed/thrown to the ground and the play fake drew the single high safety too far away to recover. The end. No blame except possibly sharpening Carrie's jamming skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said: . I for one would rather be patient considering all the factors that could be contributing to our defensive struggles. We need to stay the course and allow these young players we have drafted to grow together under consistent scheme. "All the factors"? Which are? How much money and draft picks have we thrown at the defensive side of the ball? Ok, it's still preseason. But if this mediocre to bad defense wastes prime years of a superbowl-caliber offense, will you remain patient? I haven't seen much tangible improvement and it's maddening to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: "All the factors"? Which are? How much money and draft picks have we thrown at the defensive side of the ball? Ok, it's still preseason. But if this mediocre to bad defense wastes prime years of a superbowl-caliber offense, will you remain patient? I haven't seen much tangible improvement and it's maddening to watch. What do you mean "which are"? I listed a bunch. It the defense holds us back from our goals, of course, it will be frustrating but I will also be realistic and know that it's a balancing at. We have chosen to build the defense thru the draft. It's gonna take time. The good thing is our offense proved last yr that they can offset some of those struggles and with the exception of Penn Crab and Lynch, everyone is young and the core is or will be locked up for years to come. We'll still be contending with this offense when we move to Vegas and by that time this young defense should already be a solid and competent unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 5 hours ago, NightTrainLane said: What do you mean "which are"? I listed a bunch. It the defense holds us back from our goals, of course, it will be frustrating but I will also be realistic and know that it's a balancing at. We have chosen to build the defense thru the draft. It's gonna take time. The good thing is our offense proved last yr that they can offset some of those struggles and with the exception of Penn Crab and Lynch, everyone is young and the core is or will be locked up for years to come. We'll still be contending with this offense when we move to Vegas and by that time this young defense should already be a solid and competent unit. Completely agree with the bold. We have a boatload of young talent and great depth at a lot of key positions. We only have 2-3 positions that need improvement before we become almost guaranteed playoff contenders on a yearly basis and that is at DT/NT, ILB, and CB (which may be fixed when Conley returns). The only reason why we may not make it to the playoffs is because of our extremely competitive division. It's irritating that we can't luck out like the Patriots or AFC South teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinraraiderfan 3 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 On 21/8/2017 at 10:40 PM, Silver&Black88 said: Why would I block you? I'm a mod and ruffling feathers tickles your fancy. Kinda counter-intuitive, no? Sure, I'm always down to talk. Although I feel like there might be a line of posters ahead of me trying to get a word in first. i am sorry man , i am been i little upset with some things in this forum, but at the end of the day i am bleed hard oakland raidern fan, so if the people is right and reggie take us deep into the playoof , i really hope thats the case and i be happy to be wrong ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 51 minutes ago, latinraraiderfan 3 said: i am sorry man , i am been i little upset with some things in this forum, but at the end of the day i am bleed hard oakland raidern fan, so if the people is right and reggie take us deep into the playoof , i really hope thats the case and i be happy to be wrong ... What is it exactly you're so upset over Reggie with? I'm pretty sure most posters here are pretty grounded and don't think Reggie is beyond reproach or criticism. In fact, he's taken a lot of stick for his handling of the LB situation and some less than stellar FA signings, and Ia few of us were very critical of his 2016 draft. But overall you must see he's taken this team from perennial losers to the cusp of being long term contenders - we could possibly have gone deep in the playoffs last year had it not been for an unlucky break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinraraiderfan 3 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Darbsk said: What is it exactly you're so upset over Reggie with? I'm pretty sure most posters here are pretty grounded and don't think Reggie is beyond reproach or criticism. In fact, he's taken a lot of stick for his handling of the LB situation and some less than stellar FA signings, and Ia few of us were very critical of his 2016 draft. But overall you must see he's taken this team from perennial losers to the cusp of being long term contenders - we could possibly have gone deep in the playoffs last year had it not been for an unlucky break. firs of all i have to say to me is really stupid that a team has 10 +losing season like the raiders have between 2002 and 2012 2013 i dont remember, so thas not too dificult to improve, , we all know that al made those crazy picks , so when reggie took us it was almos impossible to go down then , i knever said that reggie worst has been awful, or bad or terrible , bad , i think i said , its mediocre which is regular to me, why ? .... despite i am not sure i think we havent had a top defenses the las 5 years , how da hell youre going to go deep wiouth a good defense , 2. as must as i hate to say it , i think , i think Dereck Karr is a good QB , but not an ELite qb, i know last year he put great numbers , but thats the feel i have and i could continuo with some other reggie decisiton that i havent like like bring trend richardson i think was his name, the RB , etc etc , but, lests wait and lest hope, that i am wrong , because all we talked right now, we weel knew the truth at the end of the season ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 hours ago, latinraraiderfan 3 said: firs of all i have to say to me is really stupid that a team has 10 +losing season like the raiders have between 2002 and 2012 2013 i dont remember, so thas not too dificult to improve, , we all know that al made those crazy picks , so when reggie took us it was almos impossible to go down then , i knever said that reggie worst has been awful, or bad or terrible , bad , i think i said , its mediocre which is regular to me, why ? .... despite i am not sure i think we havent had a top defenses the las 5 years , how da hell youre going to go deep wiouth a good defense , 2. as must as i hate to say it , i think , i think Dereck Karr is a good QB , but not an ELite qb, i know last year he put great numbers , but thats the feel i have and i could continuo with some other reggie decisiton that i havent like like bring trend richardson i think was his name, the RB , etc etc , but, lests wait and lest hope, that i am wrong , because all we talked right now, we weel knew the truth at the end of the season ... I'm thinking you should have kept it to the shorter post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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