Random Ravens Thoughts: New Forum Edition

[diamondbull424]

18 hours ago, bmorecareful said:

I dont have any proof of this but I believe Decosta took the lead on the 2018 draft and allowed Ozzie to take credit... if nothing else he was behind drafting Lamar... There is no way I’d ok u trading my second round pick In my first official draft as Gm unless I was completely on board with the selection... to be honest I think it goes back even further than that... the whole idea of doubling down in the early rounds with the same position Over the most recent drafts appear much different than the normal routine of drafting under Ozzie... And while some have worked and some haven’t it seems clear our draft strategy currently shows a pattern that looks more DeCosta than Ozzie 

If the double down thing is the best convincing case like @Danand said it’s not the best take. Doubling down as a means of fixing a roster weak spot is a very Ravens/Ozzie draft strategy from the beginning. Farming the compensatory system to do so is a very Ozzie thing as well. If anything the prospect evaluations is what’s seemingly changed. Ozzie was more into that overproductive type that just made plays, DeCosta seems to be a bit more weary on that type.

Like if Ozzie was the GM AJ Epenesa might’ve been our first round pick over Patrick Queen and it would not have shocked me because he was highly productive and has great length. Whereas DeCosta seems to trust the Analytics much more and similar to Harbaugh uses it as a means of determination. But in terms of double dipping, it’s most certainly not a DeCosta thing that’s somehow new, this is clearly an Ozzie philosophy that’s been passed down to DeCosta:

2020- Queen/Harrison
2020- Duvernay/Proche?
2019- Brown/Boykin

2018- Hurst/Andrews
2017- Bowser/Williams 
2016-Correa/Kaufusi/Judon
2016- Young/Canady
2015- Williams/Boyle/Waller
2014- Jernigan/Urban
2011- T.Smith/T.Doss
2010- Dickson/Pitta
2007- Grubbs/Yanda
2003- Suggs/J.Johnson
1997- Boulware/Sharper

Also the reason for my question mark is that in the past we’ve seen the Ravens consistently double dip at WR with 2nd and 3rd day picks... I didn’t really count some of those classes because all of those WRs have mostly busted and it would’ve been too much effort writing all of those busts.

If there is a potential silver lining with DeCosta over Ozzie is that he seems to have a superior feel to Ozzie over which WRs have better productive traits... he seems to value strong hands more in the process vs just productive and athletic traits.

FWIW I also included the triple dip classes that was if DeCosta ever triple dips it’s also not some sort of milestone event... as we’ve seen that before as well.

9 hours ago, santiagomn8 said:

As always I think Decosta had a big role in the 2018 draft but Ozzie had the final say. There is no doubt you can see both philosophies in this draft. I think trading down getting extra picks and getting Hurst  and missing out on Derwin James screams Ozzie. Now that’s not meant as a slight because hindsight is 20/20 but, after the draft Decosta even talked about how much he loved Derwin James. As for the Lamar pick I think that was on both of them. I believe Ozzie wanted Lamar I also think Decosta also wanted him and was good with the trade up. Orlando Brown screams Ozzie pick. In the end it doesn’t really matter. Ozzie was an amazing GM and no matter what Decosta does in the future nothing will change that. I’m just happy we go from one Amazing GM to another.

Great take. Agree completely. I definitely think there’s been a transition period and like you said DeCosta has basically worked alongside Ozzie for sometime as a sort of GM 1a and GM 1b kind of role. Ozzie getting the final “guy” say but DeCosta incorporated more analytics to help format the draft board than ever before... so those final few drafts share an identity with both guys for sure. Plus even now Ozzie’s influence is felt with such double dip philosophy or highly valuing picks and not trading up so much for impact players and remaining patient; in selecting the BPA as well as double dipping at draft needs... and then the always prevalent late round DB pick.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by diamondbull424
Probably should’ve spaced between Ozzie’s GM tenure and DeCosta

[SalvadorsDeli]

1 hour ago, jpeter15 said:

I agree with your take. I also suspect this was a very slow and methodical changing of the guards over 5+ years with lots of collaboration. It is very likely EDC has had the role of a full GM but without final say for years working with Ozzie. Remember how Bisciotti transitioned ownership from Modell. He has spoken many times about how beneficial it was for him to learn as he ramped up ownership. It certainly worked out well for us with ownership and now our GM.

Yeah I mean as boring as it sounds I think 'it's somewhere in the middle' is probably the correct take. DeCosta would have likely had a much bigger role in 2018 compared to say, the 2010 or 2011 draft, and it could have even been a 1a/1b situation by then, but even then you can't really look past Ozzie playing a guiding role. To the extent EDC had a 'guy' in the 2018 draft it sounds like it was DJ Moore and we didn't even get him.

I do think EDC would have had to be fully on-board with the Lamar pick but that doesn't just pertain to him. In general. Ozzie wasn't going to go picking our franchise QB there for the 'next' regime unless all of Bisciotti, Harbaugh, and EDC were also fully on board. To the extent we've heard much about the Lamar draft pick process it sounds a lot like the Flacco pick where it was Bisciotti who was most antsy about making sure he got his QB and begging Ozzie to trade up whereas Ozzie wanted to trust his draft board and intuition about where he thought Lamar would be available, before agreeing to make a move up sooner than he probably thought he needed to (it sounds like they think they could have had Lamar in the early 2nd) just to get Steve off his back. 

 

[sp6488]

Edit: @diamondbull424 mentioned all of the ones I was thinking

Edited May 13, 2020 by sp6488

[sp6488]

29 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Yeah I mean as boring as it sounds I think 'it's somewhere in the middle' is probably the correct take. DeCosta would have likely had a much bigger role in 2018 compared to say, the 2010 or 2011 draft, and it could have even been a 1a/1b situation by then, but even then you can't really look past Ozzie playing a guiding role. To the extent EDC had a 'guy' in the 2018 draft it sounds like it was DJ Moore and we didn't even get him.

I do think EDC would have had to be fully on-board with the Lamar pick but that doesn't just pertain to him. In general. Ozzie wasn't going to go picking our franchise QB there for the 'next' regime unless all of Bisciotti, Harbaugh, and EDC were also fully on board. To the extent we've heard much about the Lamar draft pick process it sounds a lot like the Flacco pick where it was Bisciotti who was most antsy about making sure he got his QB and begging Ozzie to trade up whereas Ozzie wanted to trust his draft board and intuition about where he thought Lamar would be available, before agreeing to make a move up sooner than he probably thought he needed to (it sounds like they think they could have had Lamar in the early 2nd) just to get Steve off his back. 

 

This is always very interesting to me. Even if they could have had him in the early second, I think you take him in the end of first (unless price to move there is too much). The 5th year option is WAY too valuable (particularly for outside top-ten) for a QB.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

This was always in the back of my mind "Why are we ALWAYS on the road?!" But I didn't know it was this bad.

 

[Ray Reed]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

This was always in the back of my mind "Why are we ALWAYS on the road?!" But I didn't know it was this bad.

 

Yeah i mentioned that in the schedule thread...crazy 

[Ray Reed]

There’s a very real chance that all 3 of our home division games, as well as the chiefs game, will be played at m&t without fans.

On the flip side, there’s a very real chance that all 3 of our away division games will be played with fans in those stadiums.

🤨

[SalvadorsDeli]

Saw an interesting question on Reddit about what former player you'd love to drop into the current team. Think it makes for an interesting debate mostly between our numerous all time great defenders. 

My half joking answer is Ravens legend Terrell Owens who would make our offense straight up unstoppable, but I suppose that doesn't really count...

The obvious choice seems to be between Ray and Ed - and I think I might lean Ed here both because he's my favorite player and because we'd genuinely have the greatest secondary of all time with a prime Ed Reed and Earl Thomas helping clean up for our elite corners group. 

But just from the biggest actual value-add to the team, I think the answer might be the 2011 DPOY version of Terrell Suggs, to give us a Hall of Famer at probably our weakest premium position. Would be a MASSIVE boost to our pass rush as well as run defense, and there'd be a big knock-on effect too with how much more effective Judon would be. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by BaltimoreTerp

[berlin calling]

Hollywood putting in work. People still doubting him training with his cousin and taking in his routines are a bad thing? Dude already looks to have gained a solid 10-15 pounds. He is going to kill it this season.

 

[SalvadorsDeli]

15 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

There’s a very real chance that all 3 of our home division games, as well as the chiefs game, will be played at m&t without fans.

On the flip side, there’s a very real chance that all 3 of our away division games will be played with fans in those stadiums.

🤨

Yeah although who really knows what's going to happen. If we start the season with no fans and there hasn't been significant gains made in figuring out workable COVID treatments then it's kind of hard for me to imagine that as the weather gets colder and we approach the 'second wave' with cold and flu season that the NFL will be in a position to actually start opening up further and allow more people into stadiums than they were previously. Could be that the only games where fans are allowed are actually the earlier season games and then they have to scale things back from there. More likely seems that there will be no or few fans at any games next season if the games happen at all. 

[diamondbull424]

40 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Saw an interesting question on Reddit about what former player you'd love to drop into the current team. Think it makes for an interesting debate mostly between our numerous all time great defenders. 

My half joking answer is Ravens legend Terrell Owens who would make our offense straight up unstoppable, but I suppose that doesn't really count...

The obvious choice seems to be between Ray and Ed - and I think I might lean Ed here both because he's my favorite player and because we'd genuinely have the greatest secondary of all time with a prime Ed Reed and Earl Thomas helping clean up for our elite corners group. 

But just from the biggest actual value-add to the team, I think the answer might be the 2011 DPOY version of Terrell Suggs, to give us a Hall of Famer at probably our weakest premium position. Would be a MASSIVE boost to our pass rush as well as run defense, and there'd be a big knock-on effect too with how much more effective Judon would be. 

Tbqh I would probably go with Haloti Ngata. I think what made our 2006 defense so dangerous was combining Haloti Ngata with Trevor Pryce and their ability to destroy pockets consistently.

Suggs would be great for sure. But Ngata at his peak was a force that only a prime JJ Watt made you stop and say “I’m jealous”. If we have that guy added to this defense... I’m confident we’ve got a very dominant run defense upfront (Ngata, Williams, Campbell). Guys who can collapse the pocket and make our edge options even more dominant. Peak Ngata was a HOF talent, but injuries and splash plays (sacks) weren’t enough to get him in. 

That all said, the real and obvious answer to me is for sure Ray Lewis. We’ve got guys like Derek Wolfe and Justin Madubuike upfront paired with Campbell and Williams. We’ve got Earl and Chuck Clark on the backend with multiple All Pro level talents at corner.

However we didn’t just double dip on the ILB position in this draft because we felt it was in anyway “stable” and “solidified”. If we’re adding a peak Ray Lewis to this defense we’ve got a guy who can cover, destroy RBs, blitz the QB, create splash plays, and lead top defenses... get young guys to play at a high level. We’re hoping Patrick Queen can offer a semblance of that to really improve the defense. He doesn’t have the same hit stick as Ray though and only a select few are possessed of his same leadership/motivation qualities.

This team has missed Rays leadership in the playoffs. No offense to Flacco because he stepped up in the playoffs but just imagine if that 2006 team or 2011 team had our offense from last season... we would roll through opponents corpses on a way to an undefeated season. Ray and co. dragged some terrible offenses to the playoffs before Reed, Suggs, and Ngata ever arrived. They of course all helped in sowing that calamity, but the one guy that was the constant and that ended the era was Ray. Post Ray, Suggs never had the leadership to get this unit to raise the level of its play, he also jumped ship partly because of the young rushers but partly because he didn’t seem to believe in Lamar... whereas Ray Lewis (in retirement) was a huge fan of Lamar’s in HS, in college, and knew he would be a great pro. Ray had such a strong internal belief that he got others to buy in. That’s what Championship teams require. So it’s no secret that Suggs rings came from playing with Ray and playing with Mahomes. The power of belief is such an underrated factor in these conversations in my opinion and to me that (along with the All Pro HOF talent) is why Ray Lewis is the obvious answer and there’s no need to overthink this.

[diamondbull424]

8 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Yeah although who really knows what's going to happen. If we start the season with no fans and there hasn't been significant gains made in figuring out workable COVID treatments then it's kind of hard for me to imagine that as the weather gets colder and we approach the 'second wave' with cold and flu season that the NFL will be in a position to actually start opening up further and allow more people into stadiums than they were previously. Could be that the only games where fans are allowed are actually the earlier season games and then they have to scale things back from there. More likely seems that there will be no or few fans at any games next season if the games happen at all. 

Yeah if I’m the NFL I’m only selling the stadiums to 25% capacity and then pumping in crowd noise from there. Space everything out with regard to the fans. No use opening yourself up to a lawsuit. So at best I’m doing fan raffles to fill the stadium or doing no fans at all.

Being an athlete is all about being mentally tough, playing with no fans in the stadiums is just another way to prove their mental toughness IMO.

Edited May 15, 2020 by diamondbull424

[diamondbull424]

On 5/14/2020 at 1:46 PM, diamondbull424 said:

Tbqh I would probably go with Haloti Ngata. I think what made our 2006 defense so dangerous was combining Haloti Ngata with Trevor Pryce and their ability to destroy pockets consistently.

Suggs would be great for sure. But Ngata at his peak was a force that only a prime JJ Watt made you stop and say “I’m jealous”. If we have that guy added to this defense... I’m confident we’ve got a very dominant run defense upfront (Ngata, Williams, Campbell). Guys who can collapse the pocket and make our edge options even more dominant. Peak Ngata was a HOF talent, but injuries and splash plays (sacks) weren’t enough to get him in. 

That all said, the real and obvious answer to me is for sure Ray Lewis. We’ve got guys like Derek Wolfe and Justin Madubuike upfront paired with Campbell and Williams. We’ve got Earl and Chuck Clark on the backend with multiple All Pro level talents at corner.

However we didn’t just double dip on the ILB position in this draft because we felt it was in anyway “stable” and “solidified”. If we’re adding a peak Ray Lewis to this defense we’ve got a guy who can cover, destroy RBs, blitz the QB, create splash plays, and lead top defenses... get young guys to play at a high level. We’re hoping Patrick Queen can offer a semblance of that to really improve the defense. He doesn’t have the same hit stick as Ray though and only a select few are possessed of his same leadership/motivation qualities.

This team has missed Rays leadership in the playoffs. No offense to Flacco because he stepped up in the playoffs but just imagine if that 2006 team or 2011 team had our offense from last season... we would roll through opponents corpses on a way to an undefeated season. Ray and co. dragged some terrible offenses to the playoffs before Reed, Suggs, and Ngata ever arrived. They of course all helped in sowing that calamity, but the one guy that was the constant and that ended the era was Ray. Post Ray, Suggs never had the leadership to get this unit to raise the level of its play, he also jumped ship partly because of the young rushers but partly because he didn’t seem to believe in Lamar... whereas Ray Lewis (in retirement) was a huge fan of Lamar’s in HS, in college, and knew he would be a great pro. Ray had such a strong internal belief that he got others to buy in. That’s what Championship teams require. So it’s no secret that Suggs rings came from playing with Ray and playing with Mahomes. The power of belief is such an underrated factor in these conversations in my opinion and to me that (along with the All Pro HOF talent) is why Ray Lewis is the obvious answer and there’s no need to overthink this.

Didn’t realize this video but along this same point. Peyton Manning (who is my GOAT QB over Brady) mentions who his most difficult opponent was to face in NFL history: Ray Lewis.

 

[Ray Reed]

But I thought that Browns fan cracked the code of playing man coverage against Lamar...is a 91 QBR good or anything?

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, Ray Reed said:

But I thought that Browns fan cracked the code of playing man coverage against Lamar...is a 91 QBR good or anything?

"Yeah but he's throwing to open receivers all the time so it doesn't count!"