Keys to Gruden Success?

[NCOUGHMAN]

52 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I believe Jackson was over rated and/or is struggling on the right side.  I think Penn starting declining after 2016.  Hudson and KO where fine but I think the ZBS is having a huge impact on KO.  ZBS is having a negative effect on Jackson also but his problems go beyond that.  Jackson is making what we should be paying a RT to finally shore up that position.  Hard to tell what we should do to fix the o-line issues because there are several ways to attack it.  All I know is that something needs to be done and Parker is not ready to start.  Would love to sign the best RT we could get and let Parker sit behind Miller.  Really believe he can play LT but have my doubts about the right side.  I think Miller could play on the right side but not Parker.  We could even try both on the left next to each other.  This is not my Ideal situation but I think flipping everyone on the line might end up with a better result.

I think Hudson, ko and Jackson are overpaid and or overrated. We could never depend on them in short yardage situations imo. Penn was serviceable at lt and we haven’t had a good rt since freakin Lincoln Kennedy lol

i understand pbs vs zbs for run blocking but oline is whiffing on pass plays also

Edited November 14, 2018 by NCOUGHMAN

[true2form]

Question for you guys.  Would it make you feel better about the rebuild if it was something you knew needed to happen in the offseason?

To me it seems like a lot of you are just hung up on what you thought the team might have been.  If we had kept Mack we may be 3-6 or 5-4 at best.  Is that really where you'd rather be? Not much better or barely alive in the playoff race. Picking this may seem like the better choice, but you also don't get to keep the draft picks or the cap space. Hard to improve upon a middle of the pack team without those.

The reason I ask is because we all went through this same thing in 2013 and I think we all knew it needed to happen.  I'm much happier this time around because of the draft picks that we will have.  We were handicapped by the Palmer trade the first time around.  Maybe I'm delusional, but I can't help but compare us to the Rams. Is it out of the question to think we will be a contender in 2-3 years?

 

[SimonGruber]

4 minutes ago, true2form said:

Question for you guys.  Would it make you feel better about the rebuild if it was something you knew needed to happen in the offseason?

To me it seems like a lot of you are just hung up on what you thought the team might have been.  If we had kept Mack we may be 3-6 or 5-4 at best.  Is that really where you'd rather be? Not much better or barely alive in the playoff race. Picking this may seem like the better choice, but you also don't get to keep the draft picks or the cap space. Hard to improve upon a middle of the pack team without those.

The reason I ask is because we all went through this same thing in 2013 and I think we all knew it needed to happen.  I'm much happier this time around because of the draft picks that we will have.  We were handicapped by the Palmer trade the first time around.  Maybe I'm delusional, but I can't help but compare us to the Rams. Is it out of the question to think we will be a contender in 2-3 years?

 

The other thing in Gruden’s favor is having cap space as opposed to 12 and 13. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

16 minutes ago, true2form said:

Question for you guys.  Would it make you feel better about the rebuild if it was something you knew needed to happen in the offseason?

To me it seems like a lot of you are just hung up on what you thought the team might have been.  If we had kept Mack we may be 3-6 or 5-4 at best.  Is that really where you'd rather be? Not much better or barely alive in the playoff race. Picking this may seem like the better choice, but you also don't get to keep the draft picks or the cap space. Hard to improve upon a middle of the pack team without those.

The reason I ask is because we all went through this same thing in 2013 and I think we all knew it needed to happen.  I'm much happier this time around because of the draft picks that we will have.  We were handicapped by the Palmer trade the first time around.  Maybe I'm delusional, but I can't help but compare us to the Rams. Is it out of the question to think we will be a contender in 2-3 years?

 

I was thinking do we go Browns route and build through the draft acquiring future picks with trade downs with major cap $.

Or rams route building fa heavy and draft picks here and there

[Humble_Beast]

I don't think we aren't going spend much next offseason..maybe a few guys here and there and save the cap space.... I could see being big spenders in 2020 VIVA Las Vegas..... Raiders would have the buzz of the league With the big move, new young core with all those 1st rounders,  and new stadium and facilities....

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I used to think like you but not anymore. Crabtree was declining even in the playoff year. Our oline is overrated imo and is on the decline. Defense was never really anything special it was just Mack and a bunch of other guys. 

I say nothing else has worked cause we tried to build through the draft and fa with reg which has been a huge failure. So why not try gruden luckily we got picks for guys who imo were leaving anyways.

if gruden plan doesn’t work then it doesn’t but I don’t think it can get any worse then reg’s Roster. 

The way I look at it is that we had a team capable of contending for the playoffs, the defense wasn't anything special for sure but what we needed to do was give Mack some help not get rid of him and try and replace him with rookies and 30+ journeymen. Imagine if we had Mack plus we added Hurst and say Hankins and Key was fed in sparingly. We added a couple corners and then took the pass rush away from them so we might as well have trotted the cheapest guys out there as they have no help. Again, imagine if we had a guy like Bowman manning the middle and leading by example, helping the young LBs grow behind a line that actually provides some push. 

You say that nothing has worked and we've tried to build through the draft and FA but it's literally only 1 season since we were in the playoffs - and we got there by Reggie drafting and using FA...........does that not seem a tad premature to just blow the whole thing up? 

The last sentence makes no sense. Yes, the roster under McKenzie had holes but to say it can't get worse..................have you not seen the last 6 games???? I literally cannot remember a worse stretch and I have fully experienced such delights as the B&B offense and pretty much every team from the mid 80s on. This team has no redeeming features, none. At least the crappy mid 2000's teams occasionally played with passion and hadn't had the will sucked out of them by the HC with players actually retiring mid season rather than play for us.

[Darbsk]

55 minutes ago, true2form said:

Question for you guys.  Would it make you feel better about the rebuild if it was something you knew needed to happen in the offseason?

To me it seems like a lot of you are just hung up on what you thought the team might have been.  If we had kept Mack we may be 3-6 or 5-4 at best.  Is that really where you'd rather be? Not much better or barely alive in the playoff race. Picking this may seem like the better choice, but you also don't get to keep the draft picks or the cap space. Hard to improve upon a middle of the pack team without those.

The reason I ask is because we all went through this same thing in 2013 and I think we all knew it needed to happen.  I'm much happier this time around because of the draft picks that we will have.  We were handicapped by the Palmer trade the first time around.  Maybe I'm delusional, but I can't help but compare us to the Rams. Is it out of the question to think we will be a contender in 2-3 years?

 

Yes!

And the reasons are as follows:

i)  We'd have an elite player on D that we could build around, Hurst, Key, Lee, Morrow, Conley, Worley, Melvin would all be better off with him and they would have developed faster and had a greater chance of becoming better players as a result of him being on the team.

ii)  I don't trust Gruden to use the draft picks wisely. It's ok to hypothesise that we could have a rookie pass rusher on a rookie contract and another piece for the O on a rookie contract but over 50% of draft picks on all teams underwhelm or bust. We're swapping a winning lottery ticket for a handful of new lottery tickets. Playing Devils advocate, what if our new 1st round picks bust or have off the field troubles etc? 

iii)  It's much easier to add a couple pieces to an already functioning team to try and make improvements than throw everything out and start from scratch. Better the Devil you know - we know where the weaknesses were and we could focus on those, right now we have weaknesses everywhere and even if we do hit on a few draft picks and we're talking 3 years time that gives us 1 year before they all will be requiring new contracts or extensions and we're back in the Mack situation.

iv)  By creating the calamity we now have Gruden, Mark Davis and the whole organisation has lost credibility, cache and any semblance of leverage we may have had attracting FAs. A prospective FA pass rusher would be more inclined to want to play opposite Mack for example - he would make him look better and allow him to shine. Now we've got the proposition of selling potential FAs on playing alongside Fadol Brown, Frostee Rucker and whatever journeyman we're trotting out there this week, we'll have to overpay to get anyone decent at all.

v)  History has shown us that you don't need top 10 picks year after year to maintain a successful organisation, occasionally a team turns things around quickly but most teams have a franchise QB and hit on a few picks per season while adding sensible FAs - remember the dream team in Philly and how many 1st round picks the Browns have had - cap room and draft picks don't automatically correlate to wins.

[Humble_Beast]

yah I didn't like Mack move....one of my favorite memories as a Raider fan was Carr and Mack coming in and turning the program around.... It's all on Gruden now to hit on all these picks....build a young core around Carr... going be hard to attract free agents too.. sadly a lot of these athletes watch ESPN and those morning shows, and we been getting bashed and laugh at for months... going have to overpaid to get any good and not old in free agency...

Edited November 14, 2018 by Humble_Beast

[Chali21]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I was thinking do we go Browns route and build through the draft acquiring future picks with trade downs with major cap $.

Or rams route building fa heavy and draft picks here and there

The Browns passed on so many elite players, for who? Njoku and the guy from Michigan? They landed mayfield but they literally could have drafted Wentz two year earlier. 

And the Rams didn’t build through FA. They have two major cornerstones on that team that they drafted in Donald and Gurley. This past offseason they swung for the fences with Talib, Peters, Cooks and Suh. But they still had a foundation in place through the draft. 

 

Under no circumstances should the Raiders trade the 1st pick unless it is to move one spot down or an elite level player was offered like Rodgers. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

29 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

The way I look at it is that we had a team capable of contending for the playoffs, the defense wasn't anything special for sure but what we needed to do was give Mack some help not get rid of him and try and replace him with rookies and 30+ journeymen. Imagine if we had Mack plus we added Hurst and say Hankins and Key was fed in sparingly. We added a couple corners and then took the pass rush away from them so we might as well have trotted the cheapest guys out there as they have no help. Again, imagine if we had a guy like Bowman manning the middle and leading by example, helping the young LBs grow behind a line that actually provides some push. 

You say that nothing has worked and we've tried to build through the draft and FA but it's literally only 1 season since we were in the playoffs - and we got there by Reggie drafting and using FA...........does that not seem a tad premature to just blow the whole thing up? 

The last sentence makes no sense. Yes, the roster under McKenzie had holes but to say it can't get worse..................have you not seen the last 6 games???? I literally cannot remember a worse stretch and I have fully experienced such delights as the B&B offense and pretty much every team from the mid 80s on. This team has no redeeming features, none. At least the crappy mid 2000's teams occasionally played with passion and hadn't had the will sucked out of them by the HC with players actually retiring mid season rather than play for us.

Again I thought like you back then but I think bp was the first one to call that 12-4 season a fluke and he was right. Sd, kc and den all got better while we stayed the same or got worse.

I’m not a cap guy but I don’t think we could afford everybody plus Mack’s contract also with cooper looking to re-up. After Carr got his $ the writing was on the wall imo. Nobody wanted to lose a player and get nothing like aso. 

Yea we’re hot garbage right now but let’s not forget just a year ago with Mack coop Carr the whole oline etc etc and we still had pick #10. 

Reg is the reason we’re in this mess and I called it. No player is gonna waste their prime waiting for us to get our crap together nor give us a hometown discount to continue to allow us to waste their time. 

How many years have we been asking for reg to draft inside help for Mack or a rt for Carr or a good quality mlb. 

Basically we played ourselves got cute in the draft and drafted bust after bust fa wasn’t any better we went dumpster diving . Now we have to fix it.

 

[NCOUGHMAN]

4 minutes ago, Chali21 said:

The Browns passed on so many elite players, for who? Njoku and the guy from Michigan? They landed mayfield but they literally could have drafted Wentz two year earlier. 

And the Rams didn’t build through FA. They have two major cornerstones on that team that they drafted in Donald and Gurley. This past offseason they swung for the fences with Talib, Peters, Cooks and Suh. But they still had a foundation in place through the draft. 

 

Under no circumstances should the Raiders trade the 1st pick unless it is to move one spot down or an elite level player was offered like Rodgers. 

I’d trade our roster (Mack, coop and Bruce) for the browns roster right now. 

[big_palooka]

21 minutes ago, Chali21 said:

The Browns passed on so many elite players, for who? Njoku and the guy from Michigan? They landed mayfield but they literally could have drafted Wentz two year earlier. 

And the Rams didn’t build through FA. They have two major cornerstones on that team that they drafted in Donald and Gurley. This past offseason they swung for the fences with Talib, Peters, Cooks and Suh. But they still had a foundation in place through the draft. 

 

Under no circumstances should the Raiders trade the 1st pick unless it is to move one spot down or an elite level player was offered like Rodgers. 

Don't forget Goff and Kupp 

[Silver&Black88]

58 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Don't forget Goff and Kupp 

Don't forget real coaches

[big_palooka]

18 hours ago, BayRaider said:

You do if you’re not trying to win, none of those FA’s were good. 

So you're telling me back in March/April in the offseason, they knew they were not trying to win and started signing a bunch of lousy FA's? You are too much....

[big_palooka]

13 hours ago, true2form said:

Question for you guys.  Would it make you feel better about the rebuild if it was something you knew needed to happen in the offseason?

Not really. I personally pegged this as a 6-7 win team coming in, so my expectations were low. The roster had too many holes. As far as a rebuild or the now current rebuild, I don't think you have the right people in the organization for it. Gruden doesn't know how to build a roster and that becomes more evident as time is going by.

13 hours ago, true2form said:

Maybe I'm delusional, but I can't help but compare us to the Rams. Is it out of the question to think we will be a contender in 2-3 years?

I'd compare more to the Browns. Horrible ownership, horrible leadership. A lot of draft picks, but unlike the Browns, no quality FO people making decisions.