germ-x Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 8 hours ago, AKRNA said: In the era of FA it's a dilemma, that's for sure. Draft a kid and hope he can win a SB in his first five years or pick up an aging vet on a decent salary and hope he can do it. I guess my preference would be to lock in an all pro and try and get everything else to fall into place. If it doesn’t it doesn’t, like the Chargers with Rivers to this point, but I’d much prefer that route then to rotate QBs every 3-5 years, I just don’t ever see any sustained success with that philosophy. Since you’re an OL guy it’d be like dumping a good young LT (Bolles in this case who I’ve seen you comment he takes the step to pro bowler this year, and if that happens will get elite money when he hits FA) and replacing him with an average veteran to save money so the rest of the team can get built.... I get the Patriots do this to an extent, but we’re talking about maybe the biggest exception in all of sports history. They have the greatest QB in the history of the game who takes pay cuts because he can afford that luxury with a wife that’s worth $300M+. They have the greatest HC and talent evaluator in the history of the game who maximizes his talent/schemes them to success better than probably anyone in sports history. The philosophy of not paying players to save money and just building “really good teams” is a myth that the exception to this rule, the New England Patriots, have planted in the minds of football fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 ^^^To go with the above I’d love to have Patrick Mahomes and pay him $20M a year for the next decade or Ryan Ramcyck and pay him $8M a year for the next decade, or Derwin James and pay him $8M a year for the next decade. But it isn’t going to happen and I don’t blame any of these players for taking what they can get. You’re going to have to pay for production, it’s as simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 16 hours ago, germ-x said: I guess my preference would be to lock in an all pro and try and get everything else to fall into place. If it doesn’t it doesn’t, like the Chargers with Rivers to this point, but I’d much prefer that route then to rotate QBs every 3-5 years, I just don’t ever see any sustained success with that philosophy. Since you’re an OL guy it’d be like dumping a good young LT (Bolles in this case who I’ve seen you comment he takes the step to pro bowler this year, and if that happens will get elite money when he hits FA) and replacing him with an average veteran to save money so the rest of the team can get built.... I get the Patriots do this to an extent, but we’re talking about maybe the biggest exception in all of sports history. They have the greatest QB in the history of the game who takes pay cuts because he can afford that luxury with a wife that’s worth $300M+. They have the greatest HC and talent evaluator in the history of the game who maximizes his talent/schemes them to success better than probably anyone in sports history. The philosophy of not paying players to save money and just building “really good teams” is a myth that the exception to this rule, the New England Patriots, have planted in the minds of football fans. Good example with Bolles and a great way to emphasize the difference between Elway and BB. For discussion, lets say Bolles takes another step this year and earns his 1st pro-bowl. Young, family guy who still hasn't reached his full potential. What would each franchise do? Elways just gonna' grin and be pleased he's got a great LT cheap for two more years. At the end of that time Bolle's will hit FA and we'll either re-sign him to a huge contract (say 5/$90) or let him walk and get a 3rd or 4th rd. comp pick. BB on the other hand will try to re-extend Bolles for another 4+ years while he's still got two years left on his contract to a team friendly, (5/$60) mostly guaranteed contract. Nothing but upside for both parties really. BB gets his LT for the next 5 years at a bargain while Bolles gets lifetime financial security for he and his family and doesn't have to pack up and move. Now, if Bolles won't agree, BB puts him on the trade block and gets a great couple of draft picks for a young All-Pro LT, under contract for two years, that'll get nothing but better. Thats a main reason why the Pats always have so many choices in the draft, many of them day 1 and 2 picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 18 hours ago, germ-x said: I guess my preference would be to lock in an all pro and try and get everything else to fall into place. If it doesn’t it doesn’t, like the Chargers with Rivers to this point, but I’d much prefer that route then to rotate QBs every 3-5 years, I just don’t ever see any sustained success with that philosophy. Since you’re an OL guy it’d be like dumping a good young LT (Bolles in this case who I’ve seen you comment he takes the step to pro bowler this year, and if that happens will get elite money when he hits FA) and replacing him with an average veteran to save money so the rest of the team can get built.... I get the Patriots do this to an extent, but we’re talking about maybe the biggest exception in all of sports history. They have the greatest QB in the history of the game who takes pay cuts because he can afford that luxury with a wife that’s worth $300M+. They have the greatest HC and talent evaluator in the history of the game who maximizes his talent/schemes them to success better than probably anyone in sports history. The philosophy of not paying players to save money and just building “really good teams” is a myth that the exception to this rule, the New England Patriots, have planted in the minds of football fans. I agree with you. I'd rather that be the approach we took- reload not rebuild, but in this era, the model of young QB with experience around him is clearly what works. Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc... those guys are legit franchise QBs, but aside from one year of Atlanta, they've never been part of contenders, and with a QB getting 30MM/yr, you have to go into subsequent seasons with youth or inexperience at multiple positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 2 hours ago, broncos67 said: I agree with you. I'd rather that be the approach we took- reload not rebuild, but in this era, the model of young QB with experience around him is clearly what works. Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc... those guys are legit franchise QBs, but aside from one year of Atlanta, they've never been part of contenders, and with a QB getting 30MM/yr, you have to go into subsequent seasons with youth or inexperience at multiple positions. I get this stance and agree that in terms of building a complete team it is the most beneficial. However, the idea of doing this every 3-5 years or signing average vets to cheap deals to make that work I really don’t understand. There also isn’t any precedence for it and I’d be interested in seeing what happens if/when a team tries it. Again I turn to the Patriots as this is partially where this idea has come from. Yes, they pay their QB only above average money, but they don’t have an average QB, they have the GOAT. It’s an incredibly unique situation that probably isn’t able to be replicated. So again, I’ll bank on inexperience and average players at other positions all day before I’d do the same at QB...what’s crazy is that Bronco fans are on board with this and it’s basically what Denver has tried to do since Manning left and look at the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 On 4/14/2019 at 4:21 PM, germ-x said: I get this stance and agree that in terms of building a complete team it is the most beneficial. However, the idea of doing this every 3-5 years or signing average vets to cheap deals to make that work I really don’t understand. There also isn’t any precedence for it and I’d be interested in seeing what happens if/when a team tries it. Again I turn to the Patriots as this is partially where this idea has come from. Yes, they pay their QB only above average money, but they don’t have an average QB, they have the GOAT. It’s an incredibly unique situation that probably isn’t able to be replicated. So again, I’ll bank on inexperience and average players at other positions all day before I’d do the same at QB...what’s crazy is that Bronco fans are on board with this and it’s basically what Denver has tried to do since Manning left and look at the results. Actually @germ-x, thats what Elway has done since he took over in 2012. Manning was just the 1st. Also, the 2015 version of Manning when we won the SB was arguably the worst QB in the NFL but we still got a ring. PM was just awful and IMO the worst QB to ever win a SB. If he can put anywhere near that quality team around Joe we've got a very legitimate shot. Joe's a really good post season QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoSojia Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, AKRNA said: Actually @germ-x, thats what Elway has done since he took over in 2012. Manning was just the 1st. Also, the 2015 version of Manning when we won the SB was arguably the worst QB in the NFL but we still got a ring. PM was just awful and IMO the worst QB to ever win a SB. If he can put anywhere near that quality team around Joe we've got a very legitimate shot. Joe's a really good post season QB. 2015 was a lightning in the bottle year. We had one of the greatest defenses in NFL history, with 2 great corners, (a good 3rd one) two great pass rushers with depth, two good safeties, two good ILBs, and good depth on the defensive line. We also won a bunch of close games that year and that fluctuates from year to year. The odds of that happening again is very very slim. Our best bet is to draft a franchise QB high and build a team around him while he's on his rookie deal. And please enough with Joe Flacco. He's not going to lead us anywhere and is nothing more than a stopgap. Edited April 17, 2019 by BroncoSojia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 16 hours ago, AKRNA said: Actually @germ-x, thats what Elway has done since he took over in 2012. Manning was just the 1st. Also, the 2015 version of Manning when we won the SB was arguably the worst QB in the NFL but we still got a ring. PM was just awful and IMO the worst QB to ever win a SB. If he can put anywhere near that quality team around Joe we've got a very legitimate shot. Joe's a really good post season QB. Manning wasn’t an average QB, though, nor was he cheap. Denver made him the highest paid QB in the NFL when they signed him in 2012. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 3 hours ago, germ-x said: Manning wasn’t an average QB, though, nor was he cheap. Denver made him the highest paid QB in the NFL when they signed him in 2012. Didn't he break a bunch of passing records as a Broncos? I can only remember most TDs in a season...ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said: Didn't he break a bunch of passing records as a Broncos? I can only remember most TDs in a season...ever. Yeah and won NFL MVP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 5 hours ago, germ-x said: Manning wasn’t an average QB, though, nor was he cheap. Denver made him the highest paid QB in the NFL when they signed him in 2012. You're missing the point. He was an established vet that knew how to play the game. So was keenum, so is Flacco. Elways problem with Keenum was expecting him to become something he wasn't. So, this is Elways third attempt with a vet, which was my point initially. He's already dealt with two #1 picks that failed and tried the developmental route with Sieman. 3 minutes ago, germ-x said: Yeah and won NFL MVP. And led us to another embarassing SB loss. It takes a team to win a SB and a good one. 2015 is just one great example. PM sucked, our D dominated and the Bronco's got a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos_fan _from _uk Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 What will be interesting is how the league dynamic is going to change when Brady retires. No longer is the best QB in the game going to be making WAY below market value. Which strategy will win going forward. Will it continue to be teams with QBs on rookie contracts or restructures (remember Manning took a paycut to $14M the year we won) or will the teams that seem to be always so close due to having franchise QBs that take up >15% of the Cap (Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Seattle, GB) finally be able to push through once the playing field is leveled? my gut tells me it will be a combination of both. I think the established franchise QBs will win 2/3 of the rings moving forward but every couple of years a hot young QB will enable his team to win the Lombardi. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said: What will be interesting is how the league dynamic is going to change when Brady retires. No longer is the best QB in the game going to be making WAY below market value. Which strategy will win going forward. Will it continue to be teams with QBs on rookie contracts or restructures (remember Manning took a paycut to $14M the year we won) or will the teams that seem to be always so close due to having franchise QBs that take up >15% of the Cap (Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Seattle, GB) finally be able to push through once the playing field is leveled? my gut tells me it will be a combination of both. I think the established franchise QBs will win 2/3 of the rings moving forward but every couple of years a hot young QB will enable his team to win the Lombardi. I think there's a third dynamic developing. That being, FA QB's, solid but not spectacular vets, guys who's teams don't re-sign them for cap reasons. I really think QB values are due to take a pretty good hit. How do guys like Mariotta and Winston fit in? How about Wentz? He can't stay on the field. Brees, Big Ben, Rivers, Wilson, Brady, Mariotta, Winston among others will be FA's next year. Goff and Wentz entering their 5th season. I can see the reasoning of developing a great team and shuffling QB's every few years. I think the Flacco situation, jettisoning a seasoned vet for a low cost rookie may become the norm. Sitting back and signing established vets at a minimum may be the way to go. It'll be interesting to watch. IMO the days of "franchise QB's" are over if you want to win a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Seems like there is some momentum building for Haskins to Broncos at #10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 4 hours ago, AKRNA said: I think there's a third dynamic developing. That being, FA QB's, solid but not spectacular vets, guys who's teams don't re-sign them for cap reasons. I really think QB values are due to take a pretty good hit. How do guys like Mariotta and Winston fit in? How about Wentz? He can't stay on the field. Brees, Big Ben, Rivers, Wilson, Brady, Mariotta, Winston among others will be FA's next year. Goff and Wentz entering their 5th season. I can see the reasoning of developing a great team and shuffling QB's every few years. I think the Flacco situation, jettisoning a seasoned vet for a low cost rookie may become the norm. Sitting back and signing established vets at a minimum may be the way to go. It'll be interesting to watch. IMO the days of "franchise QB's" are over if you want to win a ring. You and I have been back and forth on this, but I just don’t see it. Wilson just got the largest contract in football history. I think QBs are at even more of a premium now then they have ever been, in today’s NFL you just can’t hide/scheme QB play in ways you could in the past. OLs are bad and I was reading an article about how bad WRs are now a days as well. The college game just doesn’t ask for their players to have quality in these areas. It’s a quick strike game in the NCAA and the HS game has followed that up. There is evidence of this if you just look at combine #s, the best athletes are all on the defensive side of the ball. OLs come in not doing much run blocking and only being asked to pass protect for a quick strike offense. WRs aren’t asked to run a route tree and run straight verticals, screen passes, or slants. Of the QBs you mentioned the only one that peaks my interest in following your philosophy is Goff. If there is a team that buys into your logic of shuffling QBs every 3-5 years it’s the Rams. Even then, I think Goff gets a huge deal and sticks in LA. To go along with the Rams stuff, they’ve essentially followed your plan. They spent draft capital and a ton of money fortifying everything but QB, yet their defense wasn’t good and their OL while good lost one of its best players this offseason. Again, the philosophy makes sense, but it banks on making all the right moves and if you’re letting good young QBs walk and rely on signing FAs, then you better be one hell of a talent evaluator or you won’t last long. I’ll take the QB and there is precedence for this. Even with crap teams these guys are the majority of the time playoff bound with a chance. There is a reason the Packers, Steelers, Seahawks, Chargers, Saints, hell even the Falcons are always in the mix and it isn’t because of the rest of the roster, it’s because of who they have at QB. There will always be outliers, but they’re outliers. SB teams usually have great QB play and I don’t see that changing any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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