Baltimore fans: How will you remember Flacco?

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

You went to the Playoffs like 7 straight years. Even with some of the greatest D's in the early 2000s, the Ravens never experienced that much success.

Yeah, we were good enough for 7 straight years to be a Wildcard AFC team because we had average QB play. What an extremely high bar to set. Also, team success =/= QB success, and I thought by "consistent" we were talking about QB play, not team success. We've also missed the playoffs 6 out of the past 7 years with Flacco - anything to say about that? That seems pretty consistent to me, by your same logic.

3 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

You can't be that blind. And that's not even me being a Flacco homer.

Actually, it is.

3 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

To deny Flacco being one of the reasons the Ravens has seen some amazing success would be criminal.

Okay, then by this same logic, as I stated above, Flacco is one of the reasons why we're also now a pretty average team. But again, I thought we were talking about QB play being consistent and not team success.

3 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

But then again, maybe I just got on those Flacco colored glasses. But its beyond me to see how undervalued he is seen. Really mind blowing to me. 

I blame Fantasy Football.

He's undervalued because note how once this franchise made him the cornerstone we completely fell into irrelevancy. Flacco was a decent piece for our team when he was on a rookie deal and we had 2 HOF legends anchoring our defense. 

[wackywabbit]

6 hours ago, Danand said:

There is a handful of quarterbacks who have been able to have the kind of succes Flacco have had with the Ravens and vice versa. In that time frame, I don't think many have rated the Ravens roster as a top 10 in the league, yet somehow with Flacco we have mostly been contenders. The Chiefs was the same with Alex Smith, but despite having Andy Reid as an OC and playcaller, Smith wasn't able to do much in the playoffs.

I agree with this, but think it needs to be more specific to the offense, really that's all a QB impacts. I think what a lot of people fail to do is properly differentiate between bad and average. Logically, the gap between terrible and average is as significant between average and great. 

The reason our overall success over the Flacco era is among the best in the NFL was GENERALLY because he provided an average to sometimes above average offense to go with a strong defense. So, the question is: was Flacco elevating a below average cast to average play or holding back an above average cast to average results. I think the answer is clearly the former. 

I would say on average we had above average O-line play (with a few stinker years), some very good RB seasons (with some stinkers again), but no team has invested less into offensive playmakers. Even our "good" WR years was Flacco working with guys that other teams gave up on. No one acquired for premium assets (except the bust Perriman). The supporting cast gets overlooked too much, a QB isn't in control of >50% of an offense (and aren't invested that much in terms of $$ or draft picks). Pretty clear seeing Alex Smith look like an MVP with the Chiefs last year, vs this year. Flacco would have needed some years with THAT type of help, where he would have picked up great stats, to get recognition/respect as the legit franchise QB he has been.

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

I agree with this, but think it needs to be more specific to the offense, really that's all a QB impacts. I think what a lot of people fail to do is properly differentiate between bad and average. Logically, the gap between terrible and average is as significant between average and great. 

The reason our overall success over the Flacco era is among the best in the NFL was GENERALLY because he provided an average to sometimes above average offense to go with a strong defense. So, the question is: was Flacco elevating a below average cast to average play or holding back an above average cast to average results. I think the answer is clearly the former. 

I would say on average we had above average O-line play (with a few stinker years), some very good RB seasons (with some stinkers again), but no team has invested less into offensive playmakers. Even our "good" WR years was Flacco working with guys that other teams gave up on. No one acquired for premium assets (except the bust Perriman). The supporting cast gets overlooked too much, a QB isn't in control of >50% of an offense (and aren't invested that much in terms of $$ or draft picks). Pretty clear seeing Alex Smith look like an MVP with the Chiefs last year, vs this year. Flacco would have needed some years with THAT type of help, where he would have picked up great stats, to get recognition/respect as the legit franchise QB he has been.

You’ve stated my case better than I would have stated it. The only thing I might say is that you could even argue that our OL play was simply average, not even above average. Which makes the job Flacco did to guide that offensive unit to playoff success more impressive considering that his predecessors couldn’t even do that.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

You’ve stated my case better than I would have stated it. The only thing I might say is that you could even argue that our OL play was simply average, not even above average. Which makes the job Flacco did to guide that offensive unit to playoff success more impressive considering that his predecessors couldn’t even do that.

I think there's definitely some revisionist history going on here with our OL's. I would definitely say we had some above average offensive lines, and we certainly have had a lot of talent there throughout the years.

[Danand]

Regarding the oline, I think people forget how much of a mess it was during the super bowl season. We had to bench players and it took at big rotation going into the playoffs to get something going.

Other teams have had great defense but those teams rarely have had the succes Ravens/Flacco have had, other teams have had great offenses and still haven't had similar succes. Chargers being one of the obvious ones where a Philip Rivers with all his weapons somehow have managed to lose too many games despite being recognized year after year as one of the teams with the overall strongest roster.

There is also an element of "being good" at the right time. Flacco have performed as an average quarterback in games and then when we needed a good drive the most he provided that. Blake Bortles could throw for 300 yeards in garbage time, Philip Rivers have had games with 400 passing yards and 3 TD's but they came after he buried his team throwing several interceptions. 

Still with Ray Rice, Flacco didn't have a team where our receivers and tight ends constantly took short completions for long gains/TD's. The years with Torrey Smith was sometimes a deep bomb fest which I also think many forget. We had great succes with those 40-60 yard long gains and the PI's that followed. Over Flaccos career however, the only pass catcher who managed to do anything outside of Baltimore was Boldin. While Flacco have not created a start receiver during his career, no one have done anything when they got an opportunity outside of Baltimore.

I saw mentioned on twitter that Flacco has played on teams with such great players that we could constantly let free agents go and net more draft picks and still have someone who could fill in. Again, we don't really see many players leave Baltimore and have success elsewhere. This narrative about Flacco being carried by the entire team around him just doesn't hold water.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Didn't we really only bench McKinnie because he kept getting super fat? Then the Superbowl run happened and he managed to play well for consecutive games?

Also, if Flacco was really the glue that was holding this team up all these years, we'd see a dramatic fall off in performance with him being injured, but we've now had two seasons (really 3) of that happening with really zero drop off in anything. The "lost" 2015 season we were terrible with Flacco and terrible without him. This year our offense is better without Flacco. Those first 4 years of Flacco we were able to be balanced on offense and let the defense win us games while the offense just kind of existed. Once that element was gone, and Flacco had to be the centerpiece, look what happened.

Regarding players going elsewhere and sucking, I mean those same players didn't play well for us until contract years, then got signed to huge deals and disappeared. It's not like those guys were household names and then we let them walk and they were terrible. Kelechi Osemele left here and was still dominant in Oakland until injuries have kind of derailed him. Timmy Jernigan same thing for Philly sans injuries as well. Other than that I think the one thing we do consistently well is just have super deep rosters that allows us to churn out players season after season without taking a huge hit - but that also has to do with the fact that our starters just really aren't that good to begin with.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I think there's definitely some revisionist history going on here with our OL's. I would definitely say we had some above average offensive lines, and we certainly have had a lot of talent there throughout the years.

@Danand already beat me to it. But last year we had an above average unit, I would say. We could run the football well, but the pass protection was simply solid.

Then you’d have to go all the way back to when we had Gark Kubiak to find a quality unit. Besides Yanda, I can’t think of another pro bowl level talent we’ve had in that time period.

Prior to that we had Yanda and Eugene Monroe, he played very well for us. He was arguably the best LT we’ve had overall since Ogden, though if Stanley continues to play as well as he has the past couple weeks perhaps that will change. Also I would say Gaither, but he was so inconsistent. And Bryant McKinnie was dominant so long as he didn’t balloon up to 400 lbs. Oher was an above average player that was a quality run blocker, but as a LT he was average (at best) but he struggled mightily with speed. At LG, Kelechi Osemele and Ben Grubbs have both been pro bowl players during Flacco’s tenure, but after those guys departed, there’s been plenty of below average options filling in. I can’t recall if Flacco played with Jason Brown (I believe Birk arrived with Harbaugh and Flacco but I could be mistaken), but after Birk retired we got one good year from Jensen as the only quality center play in the past 5-6 years or so. I’d say we’ve gotten above average RT play though. Yanda is also elite. So I’d go:

LT- above average

LG- average

C- below average

RG- elite

RT- above average

So I definitely think it could go either way been average to above average. Just based off how I’d rank our positional ability over the past decade (or so).

[DreamKid]

20 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Also, if Flacco was really the glue that was holding this team up all these years, we'd see a dramatic fall off in performance with him being injured, but we've now had two seasons (really 3) of that happening with really zero drop off in anything. The "lost" 2015 season we were terrible with Flacco and terrible without him. This year our offense is better without Flacco. Those first 4 years of Flacco we were able to be balanced on offense and let the defense win us games while the offense just kind of existed. Once that element was gone, and Flacco had to be the centerpiece, look what happened.

The drop off is us missing the playoffs. Which we've done the past 3 seasons.

Do you not remember last year, where during the first part of the season Flacco was dealing with the back and Marty crippled our offense to match him? And then a healthier Post Bye Flacco threw 10 TDs and only 3 Picks? With a core of Maclin-Perriman-Wallace. That's the dramatic difference demonstrated quite clearly and recently. Unfortunately though, that big bad defense of ours couldn't hold the Steelers under 38 points or stop a now infamous down and distance against the Bengals.

Lol If you're reaching to try and knock Joe Flacco for no discernibly sane reason. Why would you point to the 5th Year of his career as when "the element was gone, and Flacco had to be the centerpiece, look what happened"..............

We all saw what happened bro,

 

 

No one will ever argue that Flacco can carry a team solely by himself, but what QBs can?

For real.....

What QBs can so sufficiently rise above sub par surrounding talent, sub par play calling, sub par protection, a handcuffed offense(no running game), and a poor Defense & Special Teams - that they can be considered as carrying the team?

Whatever name you come up with. Like say, Aaron Rodgers? .....No one is going to argue Flacco is that caliber of player, and you'd be insane to judge Flacco against him because that level of QB is the rarest commodity in football.

All QBs are affected by surrounding talent, protection, scheme & play calling, health, and their environment(Coaching). From the best ones(Rodgers), all the way down to the worst ones(Peterman). To deny that, would mean you're really stupid.

Acknowledging Flacco's need for supplementary aspects of the offense and coaching to be better in order to for us to find more success isn't shaming Flacco, it's just highlighting a sport wide truth. 

The conditions needed for Flacco to find success have been established for years. And the success he has had rivals most QBs in the game. Our FO and Coaching Staff failed Flacco in many ways, and I hope they don't do the same for Lamar.

[SalvadorsDeli]

I'll remember him fondly for sure, obviously. He went on a legendary run and won us a championship. But his career is very much cut in two halves here - his rookie contract and then post-extension. The past 5 years were a time when we needed him to really take the bull by the horns and show leadership both on and off the field and I haven't really seen that. While he's never had elite weapons around him, he's also hasn't done much to make players around him better. It's not like he took below average or average weapons and produced more than below average or average results.  

Even in this thread you can see a whole lot of bending over backwards to defend him/make him appear better than he is, and that's understandable - people feel loyalty to a guy who delivered a ring for the franchise, and beyond that a lot of Ravens fans have always had comparatively lower expectations for him compared to other QB's in the league because people are as much comparing him to the Kyle Boller's and Anthony Wright's of yesteryear rather than actually measuring him up against other QB's currently in the league.

But that's all just noise in the end. If you would have told me that to win that championship in 2012, we would have had to sit through 5 years of mediocrity afterwards, I probably would have taken that deal. So in that sense, Flacco delivered what he had to to be a success here. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

8 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

@Danand already beat me to it. But last year we had an above average unit, I would say. We could run the football well, but the pass protection was simply solid.

Then you’d have to go all the way back to when we had Gark Kubiak to find a quality unit. Besides Yanda, I can’t think of another pro bowl level talent we’ve had in that time period.

Kelechi Osemele? Rick Wagner? 

8 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Prior to that we had Yanda and Eugene Monroe, he played very well for us. He was arguably the best LT we’ve had overall since Ogden, though if Stanley continues to play as well as he has the past couple weeks perhaps that will change. Also I would say Gaither, but he was so inconsistent. And Bryant McKinnie was dominant so long as he didn’t balloon up to 400 lbs. Oher was an above average player that was a quality run blocker, but as a LT he was average (at best) but he struggled mightily with speed. At LG, Kelechi Osemele and Ben Grubbs have both been pro bowl players during Flacco’s tenure, but after those guys departed, there’s been plenty of below average options filling in. I can’t recall if Flacco played with Jason Brown (I believe Birk arrived with Harbaugh and Flacco but I could be mistaken), but after Birk retired we got one good year from Jensen as the only quality center play in the past 5-6 years or so. I’d say we’ve gotten above average RT play though. Yanda is also elite. So I’d go:

LT- above average

LG- average

C- below average

RG- elite

RT- above average

So I definitely think it could go either way been average to above average. Just based off how I’d rank our positional ability over the past decade (or so).

 

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

The drop off is us missing the playoffs. Which we've done the past 3 seasons.

Do you not remember last year, where during the first part of the season Flacco was dealing with the back and Marty crippled our offense to match him? And then a healthier Post Bye Flacco threw 10 TDs and only 3 Picks? With a core of Maclin-Perriman-Wallace. That's the dramatic difference demonstrated quite clearly and recently. Unfortunately though, that big bad defense of ours couldn't hold the Steelers under 38 points or stop a now infamous down and distance against the Bengals.

Yes I remember last season, and every Joe Flacco season. Post-bye Flacco played well and we expected him to carry that into this year, remember? Now we're in this year with our season hanging in the balance because Flacco and the offense have once again done nothing. 12 TD's to 6 INT's, a completion % of 61.2, Y/A at 6.5 and a rating of 84.2 is just not going to get it cut in today's NFL.

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Lol If you're reaching to try and knock Joe Flacco for no discernibly sane reason. Why would you point to the 5th Year of his career as when "the element was gone, and Flacco had to be the centerpiece, look what happened"..............

We all saw what happened bro,

Not referring to that. I'm referring to the severe dropoff of our entire team post-Superbowl once Flacco became the centerpiece and not a complimentary piece.

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

No one will ever argue that Flacco can carry a team solely by himself, but what QBs can?

Only the best of the best can, but I'm not even approaching that level of an argument. We've still had a top 10 defense every year Flacco's been here, he's never had to carry the whole team solely by himself. 

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

For real.....

What QBs can so sufficiently rise above sub par surrounding talent, sub par play calling, sub par protection, a handcuffed offense(no running game), and a poor Defense & Special Teams - that they can be considered as carrying the team?

We've literally never had a poor defense/ST while he's been here, and certainly not in the past 6 years. You're acting like Flacco's been playing in a hopeless situation, and that's just ridiculously false.

6 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Whatever name you come up with. Like say, Aaron Rodgers? .....No one is going to argue Flacco is that caliber of player, and you'd be insane to judge Flacco against him because that level of QB is the rarest commodity in football.

All QBs are affected by surrounding talent, protection, scheme & play calling, health, and their environment(Coaching). From the best ones(Rodgers), all the way down to the worst ones(Peterman). To deny that, would mean you're really stupid.

Acknowledging Flacco's need for supplementary aspects of the offense and coaching to be better in order to for us to find more success isn't shaming Flacco, it's just highlighting a sport wide truth. 

The conditions needed for Flacco to find success have been established for years. And the success he has had rivals most QBs in the game. Our FO and Coaching Staff failed Flacco in many ways, and I hope they don't do the same for Lamar.

Yes, I think we can all agree that in order for Flacco to succeed individually he needs:

1. A top 10 running game
2. A top 10 OL
3. One of the best OC's in the NFL
4. At least one top 20 WR
5. One of the best deep threats in the NFL
6. A top 5 defense who consistently allows ~20 or less PPG
7. A top 5 ST's unit

And that's it. Clearly that's a reasonable thing to request of your franchise QB in order for him to even be above average.

[paraven]

16 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Kelechi Osemele? Rick Wagner? 

 

Yes I remember last season, and every Joe Flacco season. Post-bye Flacco played well and we expected him to carry that into this year, remember? Now we're in this year with our season hanging in the balance because Flacco and the offense have once again done nothing. 12 TD's to 6 INT's, a completion % of 61.2, Y/A at 6.5 and a rating of 84.2 is just not going to get it cut in today's NFL.

Not referring to that. I'm referring to the severe dropoff of our entire team post-Superbowl once Flacco became the centerpiece and not a complimentary piece.

Only the best of the best can, but I'm not even approaching that level of an argument. We've still had a top 10 defense every year Flacco's been here, he's never had to carry the whole team solely by himself. 

We've literally never had a poor defense/ST while he's been here, and certainly not in the past 6 years. You're acting like Flacco's been playing in a hopeless situation, and that's just ridiculously false.

Yes, I think we can all agree that in order for Flacco to succeed individually he needs:

1. A top 10 running game
2. A top 10 OL
3. One of the best OC's in the NFL
4. At least one top 20 WR
5. One of the best deep threats in the NFL
6. A top 5 defense who consistently allows ~20 or less PPG
7. A top 5 ST's unit

And that's it. Clearly that's a reasonable thing to request of your franchise QB in order for him to even be above average.

The ravens were ranked 12th in points and 17th in yards in 2012. Not sure who you were referring to as a "premier" deep threat, but jacoby jones and torrey smith werent premier anything. Premier deep threats were prime Djax, Mike Wallace, Randy Moss ETC. 

 

id imagine most QBS (including TB) need at least 4 of those 7 to really succeed and win a superbowl. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

11 minutes ago, paraven said:

The ravens were ranked 12th in points and 17th in yards in 2012. Not sure who you were referring to as a "premier" deep threat, but jacoby jones and torrey smith werent premier anything. Premier deep threats were prime Djax, Mike Wallace, Randy Moss ETC. 

id imagine most QBS (including TB) need at least 4 of those 7 to really succeed and win a superbowl. 

I would certainly consider 2012 Torrey Smith to be a premier deep threat, as he was 4th in the NFL in Yards/Reception that year. Regardless of how you define "premier", Torrey Smith was one of the best deep threats in the NFL during his time here.

[diamondbull424]

19 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Kelechi Osemele? Rick Wagner? 

Yes I remember last season, and every Joe Flacco season. Post-bye Flacco played well and we expected him to carry that into this year, remember? Now we're in this year with our season hanging in the balance because Flacco and the offense have once again done nothing. 12 TD's to 6 INT's, a completion % of 61.2, Y/A at 6.5 and a rating of 84.2 is just not going to get it cut in today's NFL.

1. I mentioned Kelechi Osemele. I was saying in the time since Kubiak left in 2014, we’ve been without probowl caliber OL players outside of Yanda. Which is to say once Osemele left as well. He stuck around one more year after, but he also missed half of 2014 due to injury.

In terms of Wagner, he was above average. He was of similar impact as to what Oher gave us. I’d suffice to say that rookie Zeus Jr has been of similar quality outside of the penalties. Wagner was never a premier player with us and even while here didn’t have the best durability.

2. I think Flacco has been really good in games this year and when he’s dialed in he’s definitely the QB that gives us the best chance to win... that being said, that’s when he’s dialed in. He also will have games like the first Browns game or Panthers game where he comes out uninspired. He didn’t necessarily have a bad game against the Browns but he did seem lax to start and in turn the offense was lax from the receivers to the backs to the OL. There’s no particular leader along the offense and it’s Flacco’s job to be that guy. To pick everyone up when he senses that they’re too lax... and he doesn’t typically do that. Steve Smith was the kind of leader to do that and so was Boldin. Ray Rice as well tried to be that guy (even though when he pressed, he generally performed worse).

 So it’s a conundrum. Flacco is the better option, but that’s only when he “feels like it”, otherwise Jackson’s skillset probably gives us the best shot to win on a week in-week out basis. That said with a porous Falcons defense to get Flacco back in rhythm for a deep playoff run and with player loyalty in tow, I think riding with Flacco is the best option. We get an opportunity to increase his trade value or we let Flacco finish what he’s started and can feel confident in knowing we gave our franchise QB one last shot at greatness with our team. What he does with that opportunity is up to him.

I don’t think Flacco has been bad or good for this season. But I’d say he’s been average to above average. Our defense has also been average to above average as well. We’ll see if both can elevate their play and allow us to get lucky moving forward this season.

[diamondbull424]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I would certainly consider 2012 Torrey Smith to be a premier deep threat, as he was 4th in the NFL in Yards/Reception that year. Regardless of how you define "premier", Torrey Smith was one of the best deep threats in the NFL during his time here.

Yeah Torrey Smith was definitely a terrific deep threat for a few seasons. He only had about 1000 yards, but no squad benefited from DPI like we did with Torrey Smith there. Teams were grabbing him left and right because he has deceptive speed. While guys like Mike Wallace and Jackson had 4.3 speed, Torrey only had 4.4 speed. But his first 20 yard splits were as explosive as a 4.3 speed runner. Thus corners were consistently overwhelmed and caught off guard. If he had great hands, he would’ve been an elite option.

[paraven]

11 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I would certainly consider 2012 Torrey Smith to be a premier deep threat, as he was 4th in the NFL in Yards/Reception that year. Regardless of how you define "premier", Torrey Smith was one of the best deep threats in the NFL during his time here.

 

3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah Torrey Smith was definitely a terrific deep threat for a few seasons. He only had about 1000 yards, but no squad benefited from DPI like we did with Torrey Smith there. Teams were grabbing him left and right because he has deceptive speed. While guys like Mike Wallace and Jackson had 4.3 speed, Torrey only had 4.4 speed. But his first 20 yard splits were as explosive as a 4.3 speed runner. Thus corners were consistently overwhelmed and caught off guard. If he had great hands, he would’ve been an elite option.

I guess we have different opinions on what is premier. But most teams have a player with similar skill lets then Torrey Smith. He wasnt anything special