Baltimore fans: How will you remember Flacco?

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

13 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. I mentioned Kelechi Osemele. I was saying in the time since Kubiak left in 2014, we’ve been without probowl caliber OL players outside of Yanda. Which is to say once Osemele left as well. He stuck around one more year after, but he also missed half of 2014 due to injury.

Gotcha. I was confused on the time frame you were referencing. My confusion only doubled when I saw you mentioned him later on in your post lol

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In terms of Wagner, he was above average. He was of similar impact as to what Oher gave us. I’d suffice to say that rookie Zeus Jr has been of similar quality outside of the penalties. Wagner was never a premier player with us and even while here didn’t have the best durability.

I think that's certainly debatable about him just being above-average. Certainly he's better than Zeus Jr. is right now when he was here. But yes durability concerns were a thing, but he definitely IMO solidified that RT spot for us when he was here.

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2. I think Flacco has been really good in games this year and when he’s dialed in he’s definitely the QB that gives us the best chance to win... that being said, that’s when he’s dialed in. He also will have games like the first Browns game or Panthers game where he comes out uninspired. He didn’t necessarily have a bad game against the Browns but he did seem lax to start and in turn the offense was lax from the receivers to the backs to the OL. There’s no particular leader along the offense and it’s Flacco’s job to be that guy. To pick everyone up when he senses that they’re too lax... and he doesn’t typically do that. Steve Smith was the kind of leader to do that and so was Boldin. Ray Rice as well tried to be that guy (even though when he pressed, he generally performed worse).

RE the bolded - that's always been the case with Flacco. He's great when he's dialed in, but Flacco being dialed in rarely happens. That's my whole issue with him. If he just approached every snap like it's a tie game against Pittsburgh late in the 4th quarter we wouldn't have an issue with Flacco - but he doesn't. Flacco's never been a leader and if we're still waiting for him to be that guy now it should be obvious it's not happening.

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 So it’s a conundrum. Flacco is the better option, but that’s only when he “feels like it”, otherwise Jackson’s skillset probably gives us the best shot to win on a week in-week out basis. That said with a porous Falcons defense to get Flacco back in rhythm for a deep playoff run and with player loyalty in tow, I think riding with Flacco is the best option. We get an opportunity to increase his trade value or we let Flacco finish what he’s started and can feel confident in knowing we gave our franchise QB one last shot at greatness with our team. What he does with that opportunity is up to him.

Flacco is the better passer, so if we get into a shootout he gives us the best chance to win. However, Jackson's skillset has allowed our offense to be better, and as a whole has allowed our team to be better - so long as our defense figures their stuff out. IMHO, the only way we win with Flacco is by throwing since our running game is SO BAD with him in there, but is that a recipe to win in January? The only way that happens is if we figure out how to run the ball with Flacco's offense like we've been doing with Lamar's.

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I don’t think Flacco has been bad or good for this season. But I’d say he’s been average to above average. Our defense has also been average to above average as well. We’ll see if both can elevate their play and allow us to get lucky moving forward this season.

But what's going to trigger this team to elevate their play? It certainly hasn't been the motivation to make the playoffs (as we've seen the past two years with "Win and In" games), so what's it gonna be? In order for us to win, we need to elevate everything with Flacco in, or with Lamar in we just need the defense to elevate their play.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah Torrey Smith was definitely a terrific deep threat for a few seasons. He only had about 1000 yards, but no squad benefited from DPI like we did with Torrey Smith there. Teams were grabbing him left and right because he has deceptive speed. While guys like Mike Wallace and Jackson had 4.3 speed, Torrey only had 4.4 speed. But his first 20 yard splits were as explosive as a 4.3 speed runner. Thus corners were consistently overwhelmed and caught off guard. If he had great hands, he would’ve been an elite option.

If he had great hands and actually cared to learn to run routes.

2 minutes ago, paraven said:

I guess we have different opinions on what is premier. But most teams have a player with similar skill lets then Torrey Smith. He wasnt anything special

"He wasn't anything special" yeah because average deep threats put up the stats Torrey did for those years here...come on, man...He was a one trick pony but that trick was pretty damn good for us.

[paraven]

5 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If he had great hands and actually cared to learn to run routes.

"He wasn't anything special" yeah because average deep threats put up the stats Torrey did for those years here...come on, man...He was a one trick pony but that trick was pretty damn good for us.

he was a good player, but your made it sound like flacco needed some sort of special deep threat weapon to succeed. When in fact most teams have a player that match smiths skillset

[DreamKid]

59 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yes I remember last season, and every Joe Flacco season. Post-bye Flacco played well and we expected him to carry that into this year, remember? Now we're in this year with our season hanging in the balance because Flacco and the offense have once again done nothing. 12 TD's to 6 INT's, a completion % of 61.2, Y/A at 6.5 and a rating of 84.2 is just not going to get it cut in today's NFL.

The offense isn't built to carry this team. The roster has a massive Defensive slant. 

You have zero interest in looking at the situation objectively. 

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I'm referring to the severe dropoff of our entire team post-Superbowl once Flacco became the centerpiece and not a complimentary piece

Wow......

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

We've literally never had a poor defense/ST while he's been here, and certainly not in the past 6 years. You're acting like Flacco's been playing in a hopeless situation, and that's just ridiculously false.

I was making a general statement about QBs, not referring to Flacco's situation.

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yes, I think we can all agree that in order for Flacco to succeed individually he needs:

1. A top 10 running game
2. A top 10 OL
3. One of the best OC's in the NFL
4. At least one top 20 WR
5. One of the best deep threats in the NFL
6. A top 5 defense who consistently allows ~20 or less PPG
7. A top 5 ST's unit

And that's it. Clearly that's a reasonable thing to request of your franchise QB in order for him to even be above average.

Sigh.

 

I just hope you never develop an embarrassing bias against Lamar Jackson. The forum might not recover from that one.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

36 minutes ago, paraven said:

he was a good player, but your made it sound like flacco needed some sort of special deep threat weapon to succeed. When in fact most teams have a player that match smiths skillset

Having the skillset and actually translating that to production are two different things. Breshad Perriman had Torrey Smith's skillset, but it never translated. 

4 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

The offense isn't built to carry this team. The roster has a massive Defensive slant. 

You have zero interest in looking at the situation objectively. 

I don't see what any of this has to do with what you quoted. Maybe you got too caught up on the word "carried" and didn't realize the context I was using it in? I was pointing out that Flacco's play from last year was supposed to remain the same or better going into this year, and it hasn't. It's gotten objectively worse, despite him being fully healthy and having "better" weapons.

4 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Wow......

Are you implying that when we paid Flacco $100M we did that with the expectation that he wouldn't become the centerpiece of this offense/team? Because if so, "Wow........"

 

[M.10.E]

To answer the thread question, by far best QB in Ravens history. Underrated from 2010-2014 (sans 2013). Winner. 

[DreamKid]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

It's gotten objectively worse, despite him being fully healthy and having "better" weapons.

No. No it hasn't. LOL.

Even Flacco's biggest detractors in the film evaluation community wouldn't say that, and haven't.

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Are you implying that when we paid Flacco $100M we did that with the expectation that he wouldn't become the centerpiece of this offense/team? Because if so, "Wow........"

No, I'm not.  

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

No. No it hasn't. LOL.

Even Flacco's biggest detractors in the film evaluation community wouldn't say that, and haven't.

So his play hasn't dropped off, but his Completion % is down, Y/A is down, INT% is up, TD% is down, QBR is down, etc. etc.

How is that even possible?

7 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

No, I'm not.  

So then what's the "wow......." about?

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

While he's never had elite weapons around him, he's also hasn't done much to make players around him better. It's not like he took below average or average weapons and produced more than below average or average results. 

Marlon Brown 500+ 7TDs

Kamar Aiken 900+ 5TDs

^^ Some major examples of guys post SB that put up totals above their station.

2 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

But that's all just noise in the end. If you would have told me that to win that championship in 2012, we would have had to sit through 5 years of mediocrity afterwards, I probably would have taken that deal. So in that sense, Flacco delivered what he had to to be a success here. 

Why does 2014 not exist for Flacco haters? Is it just because the "5 Year" slogan sounds so good to you guys?

[SalvadorsDeli]

7 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Marlon Brown 500+ 7TDs

Kamar Aiken 900+ 5TDs

^^ Some major examples of guys post SB that put up totals above their station.

Why does 2014 not exist for Flacco haters? Is it just because the "5 Year" slogan sounds so good to you guys?

Aiken's 900 yard season came in the year that Flacco went on IR in midseason. So beyond that we're left with what, Marlon Brown catching a couple more TD's than we would have expected? It's a stretch to say the least. 

 

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Why does 2014 not exist for Flacco haters? Is it just because the "5 Year" slogan sounds so good to you guys?

 

 

 

Because it doesn't really do much to change the overall point? We're 46-45 since we won the Super Bowl. One playoff berth over a stretch of 5 years doesn't prove we aren't mediocre, it's the very metric that confirms that we are. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Kamar Aiken's production in 2015 mostly came without Flacco, by the way @DreamKid.

2014 is what statisticians call "an outlier", which is why it's commonly excluded.

[DreamKid]

4 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Aiken's 900 yard season came in the year that Flacco went on IR in midseason. So beyond that we're left with what, Marlon Brown catching a couple more TD's than we would have expected? It's a stretch to say the least. 

Aiken was a point of elevation. Flacco established him as a weapon. Same with Marlon Brown. They weren't starting caliber players. Just as Maclin and Perriman weren't last year. The "stretch" is when you're put in a position to minimize a QB getting numbers out of Marlon Brown.

14 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Because it doesn't really do much to change the overall point? We're 46-45 since we won the Super Bowl. One playoff berth over a stretch of 5 years doesn't prove we aren't mediocre, it's the very metric that confirms that we are.

It does change it. When the mediocrity is directly tied to Flacco's play over the last 5 years. It's ignoring a year where our offensive core was was in a healthy state, and the team/Flacco found great success as a result. 

[SalvadorsDeli]

It's genuinely baffling to me that "see look, Flacco has had one good year out of the past 5" is somehow supposed to be an argument that works in his favor. 

[DreamKid]

Just now, BaltimoreTerp said:

It's genuinely baffling to me that "see look, Flacco has had one good year out of the past 5" is somehow supposed to be an argument that works in his favor. 

It shows that when he's healthy with a good supporting cast, we've found success. 

That's baffling to you because you don't like Joe Flacco, and it changes the way you analyze him as a player. 

[wackywabbit]

Re: mediocrity

How many top 100 players in the NFL are on this roster? Top 150? How many elite playmakers?

Not everything is a Flacco problem. Again if you are evaluating an individual, you have to plug in another QB in the same spot. A spot where every starting receiver you get was discarded by another team or a draft disappointment*.

*Torrey was solid per his draft slot but far from great