Baltimore fans: How will you remember Flacco?

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

14 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

It shows that when he's healthy with a good supporting cast, we've found success. 

That's baffling to you because you don't like Joe Flacco, and it changes the way you analyze him as a player. 

So this year should cancel that out, right? He was healthy. He has a good supporting cast, but we've not found success. Argument done.

[SalvadorsDeli]

14 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Re: mediocrity

How many top 100 players in the NFL are on this roster? Top 150? How many elite playmakers?

Not everything is a Flacco problem. Again if you are evaluating an individual, you have to plug in another QB in the same spot. A spot where every starting receiver you get was discarded by another team or a draft disappointment*.

*Torrey was solid per his draft slot but far from great

Why is Flacco somehow separate from this conversation? People act like 'bad supporting cast' gets Flacco off the hook when he's the biggest example of how bloated our roster became over the past 5 years, how much money we sunk into players who aren't difference makers. It's been a mediocre supporting cast supporting a mediocre QB. It's not just one side's fault or the other, they're all culpable in it. 

[DreamKid]

2 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Again if you are evaluating an individual, you have to plug in another QB in the same spot.

That would be applying some level of thought or logic to the situation though, and for whatever reason they don't want to do that with Flacco. Injuries aren't real, Supporting Cast is just an excuse, etc etc. It's all so odd. I don't see the benefit of purposely(I guess) not analyzing a player on a club you support properly. 

I don't like Mosley as a player, on every level besides character, but I have 0 motivation to analyze his value to the Ravens in any kind of biased way. It's so counter productive and against what's fun about being a fan of a sports club imo. Oh well, to each their own.

At least they seem to like Lamar Jackson. So we'll get less of the nonsense going forward hopefully.

 

[SalvadorsDeli]

44 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

It shows that when he's healthy with a good supporting cast, we've found success. 

That's baffling to you because you don't like Joe Flacco, and it changes the way you analyze him as a player. 

So even when basically everything breaks right for Flacco: one of the best OC's in the game, a great offensive line and running game, and a real #1 receiver... he's capable of producing at the same clip as Ryan Tannehill (seriously, look at their statlines from 2014, it's virtually identical). If you need absolutely everything to break in his favor in order to produce at a modestly above average clip... that doesn't actually say great things about him as a QB! You can build a wild card team with an average/replacement level QB if everything else breaks the right way, and that's what we did in 2014 with Flacco. It doesn't mean that QB is anything special. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

47 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

So even when basically everything breaks right for Flacco: one of the best OC's in the game, a great offensive line and running game, and a real #1 receiver... he's capable of producing at the same clip as Ryan Tannehill (seriously, look at their statlines from 2014, it's virtually identical). If you need absolutely everything to break in his favor in order to produce at a modestly above average clip... that doesn't actually say great things about him as a QB! You can build a wild card team with an average/replacement level QB if everything else breaks the right way, and that's what we did in 2014 with Flacco. It doesn't mean that QB is anything special. 

the thing that always differentiated Flacco is that you could tolerate his below-average play because there was an assumption that if your team made the playoffs in spite of him, once you got to January he would elevate his play to the level necessary to win you games. That's what made him unique as a player, as frustrating as that is.

[Danand]

3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

The offense isn't built to carry this team. The roster has a massive Defensive slant. 

You have zero interest in looking at the situation objectively. 

Wow......

I was making a general statement about QBs, not referring to Flacco's situation.

Sigh.

 

I just hope you never develop an embarrassing bias against Lamar Jackson. The forum might not recover from that one.

Paraven is not allowed to be like this, but somehow SnA is allowed. It is moronic and ubarable. If anyone post negativity in here, it is him.

[Danand]

54 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

So even when basically everything breaks right for Flacco: one of the best OC's in the game, a great offensive line and running game, and a real #1 receiver... he's capable of producing at the same clip as Ryan Tannehill (seriously, look at their statlines from 2014, it's virtually identical). If you need absolutely everything to break in his favor in order to produce at a modestly above average clip... that doesn't actually say great things about him as a QB! You can build a wild card team with an average/replacement level QB if everything else breaks the right way, and that's what we did in 2014 with Flacco. It doesn't mean that QB is anything special. 

Then why doesn't all the other teams do what Flacco was able to do? I know the Bengals it is all the teams fault, the coaches, their blowing up against the Steelers, never Dalton, he is better than Flacco.

Tannehill might be able to produce some good stats, well ******* well done, is stats equal to success. Hey, do you break down those stats so meticular that you know how many of them came from screens and dump offs? Brock Osweiler looked like a fantasy beast when he made two throws to Albert Wilson who then ran it 150 yards for two touchdowns.

Please think for yourselves that there is something behind the stats. There are so many variables. I wrote it yesterday. Philip Rivers had 4 interceptions in a game and he helped the Chargers dig a huge hole. Then the other team more or less allowed him to dink n' dunk the rest of the game and he put up 400 yards, and that is what you look at after the game?

If we can agree that the Ravens are just around the 10-14 best overall roster team in the NFL, then Flacco is frigging not such a liability that some of you make him out to be.

There is 1 team that have been able to do anything against the best team in the NFL the last 15 years and that is the Ravens with Flacco leading the way. Thats not a random coincidence.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

Then why doesn't all the other teams do what Flacco was able to do? I know the Bengals it is all the teams fault, the coaches, their blowing up against the Steelers, never Dalton, he is better than Flacco.

What has Flacco been able to do that other teams haven't been able to do with their QB's? Sustain success over a 4 year span? Again, I think the difference is that unlike Dalton, Flacco elevated his play come playoff time. If you look at the Bengals in their first 5 years under Dalton it looks really similar W/L wise to the Ravens in our first 4 years with Flacco, with the obvious difference being playoff success. And statistically, Andy Dalton is better than Flacco and basically has always been better than Flacco in the regular season.

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

Tannehill might be able to produce some good stats, well ******* well done, is stats equal to success. Hey, do you break down those stats so meticular that you know how many of them came from screens and dump offs? Brock Osweiler looked like a fantasy beast when he made two throws to Albert Wilson who then ran it 150 yards for two touchdowns.

If there's something about the stats that's misleading, why don't you actually present that evidence? (BTW, yes Flacco had a better Y/A, AY/A and Y/C than Tannehill in 2014).

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

Please think for yourselves that there is something behind the stats. There are so many variables. I wrote it yesterday. Philip Rivers had 4 interceptions in a game and he helped the Chargers dig a huge hole. Then the other team more or less allowed him to dink n' dunk the rest of the game and he put up 400 yards, and that is what you look at after the game?

See above. If that applies here, just present the evidence of it.

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

If we can agree that the Ravens are just around the 10-14 best overall roster team in the NFL, then Flacco is frigging not such a liability that some of you make him out to be.

If we're being objective, Flacco is one piece of a lot of moving parts that has contributed to us being a .500 team over the past 6 years. A lot of things happened in 2013 and beyond that sharply contrasted the success we had from 2008 - 2012 and the irrelevancy that's followed since.

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

There is 1 team that have been able to do anything against the best team in the NFL the last 15 years and that is the Ravens with Flacco leading the way. Thats not a random coincidence.

Your argument here is basically an opinionated version of "correlation == causation" with nothing to back it up.

[SalvadorsDeli]

Quote

 

Then why doesn't all the other teams do what Flacco was able to do? I know the Bengals it is all the teams fault, the coaches, their blowing up against the Steelers, never Dalton, he is better than Flacco.

 

 

 

Because this team used to be really, really talented! During the years where we were a perennial contender, this was absolutely one of the most talented teams in the NFL. We built strong offensive lines, gave Joe decent weapons to work with including Mason/Boldin/Pittae/etc., drafted an All-Pro caliber RB, and were absolutely loaded on defense, anchored by 2 GOAT's at their position (whose value was not just in their on-the-field ability but in their leadership) in addition Suggs, Ngata, etc. It was a unique situation. Flacco wasn't asked to do too much and he did great in that role; and we got the added bonus of him stepping his game up in the playoffs. Joe came into the league not needing to be great. We were 2 years removed from winning 13 games and probably being the best team in the league with a noodle-armed/completely past-it Steve McNair at the helm.

Flacco didn't have to be great for a long time, and he plugged into that role and helped us win, learning to be great in big moments along the way. There was an air of positive momentum around the entire franchise that helped push him forward as well, but once that was gone and he had to do more for this organization, he wasn't up to the job. But overall the AFC was weird at that time, hell, the Jets nearly did the same thing we did with Mark Sanchez. 

Virtually everything good about Flacco's legacy in Baltimore are scrapbooks from a half decade ago. He's not that same QB anymore, and people drawing all the way back there to try and talk about Flacco's entire body of work as a Ravens QB is non-sensical. 

There is absolutely nothing in Flacco's own play or the team's accomplishments that distinguishes himself in any remarkable way since 2013. His numbers have been bad to average. The team has only made the playoffs once. It's a mediocre QB supporting a mediocre franchise. Perfectly average, good enough to say "at least he's not Brock Osweiler" but barely anything beyond that. There isn't. actually anything that separates Joe Flacco over the past 5 years from a Ryan Tannehill or Andy Dalton, except nostalgia. 

As I said before, there are two Joe Flacco eras in Baltimore. One was his rookie contract/his role in pushing this team over the hump just as the window was closing. The other, post-Super Bowl Flacco is utterly unremarkable. 

Quote

There is 1 team that have been able to do anything against the best team in the NFL the last 15 years and that is the Ravens with Flacco leading the way. Thats not a random coincidence.

Joe Flacco. Mark Sanchez. Eli Manning. Nick Foles.

Maybe it's a little more of a coincidence than you care to admit? 

[DreamKid]

lol Ryan Tannehill. At least @BaltimoreTerp got creative/funny this time.

 

5 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

There was an air of positive momentum around the entire franchise that helped push him forward as well, but once that was gone and he had to do more for this organization, he wasn't up to the job.

You know what? It was probably the absence of that "air of positive momentum" that caused Owen Daniels to drop that TD Pass against New England in 2014. Would've been Flacco's 5th TD against the eventual Super Bowl Champs, but what can you do?

 

13 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

There is absolutely nothing in Flacco's own play or the team's accomplishments that distinguishes himself in any remarkable way since 2013.

Yup. Yup.

 

This recycled Flacco conversation has run it's course. It's hilarious that 10 years later some of the same members from the old forum are giving their thoughts on the Flacco era as it nears it's conclusion. Remember when @DontTazeMeBro, was our forum troll? Boy did he enjoy ribbing the Pats fans. Or how about @Danand's playing days game updates? 

Holiday Nostalgia. In some ways, it's good to see the forum so spirited again. I'm sure Lamar is going to bring a lot more fans. So hopefully we can create a nice community for people to join. Sometimes I worry people lurk and are afraid to join in with how lit some of the threads get. 

[drd23]

1 hour ago, Danand said:

Paraven is not allowed to be like this, but somehow SnA is allowed. It is moronic and ubarable. If anyone post negativity in here, it is him.

They are not the same thing.  That SnA doesn't hold the same faith in Flacco that you and a couple of others do doesn't make him a troll.

If all you want is a positive echo chamber, then you might be better off joining a Flacco fan club or something and discussing his accomplishments there.  And I'd imagine that it'd get boring pretty quickly

[drd23]

And fwiw, I'm in SnA's side of this argument but I don't see the point in continually engaging in this circular argument. 

However if you lot want to, then feel free so long as it's kept respectful and doesn't devolve into ad hominem attacks or break any forum rules 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Statistically speaking, @BaltimoreTerp is pretty on point with the claim that there's little separating Flacco from the likes of Tannehill and Dalton over the past 6 years.

 

[JPPT1974]

Well it was a great run and really ten years nearly about bringing a stable QB there. But time to move on.

[RavensfanRD]

The church will be able to say Amen in 5 weeks as the era of Flacco will officially be over. I just wish this would hurry up so I can see who my secondary team is going to be. Unless he retires of course.