incognito_man Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Yeah, I get the point you're making - if the reasons why GB is struggling are less to do with MM than they do the other reasons, then 2019 will improve regardless, and you'll lose all of the other stuff that even his harshest critics agree he brings. At some point, though, especially if the ARod-MM relationship is not lock-solid sound anymore, well, then you have to move on. And if MM's weaknesses are the reasons why GB can't take the next step, then you are likely way better off, because they will amplify some of the improvements 2019 will bring naturally. And then with your CB's, and 2 1st round picks next year, man, you've really got something cooking in Lambeau again. Believe it or not, John Fox was incredibly well-thought of in DEN - because we all knew it was Peyton running the O, and he did a GREAT job developing the team rosters and fundamentals. But after 2014's loss in the AFC playoff game, it was so obvious he was never going to be the guy to bring us the title. It doesn't change that he was actually a great HC for a long time at developing teams - but couldn't get them to the title. What happened in CHI was that the game passed him by. I'm not saying MM is the same, and if he is, it's not nearly to the same degree (because Fox in CHI was an utter horror show) - but at some point, the game often evolves past coaches or players. Now, maybe I'm projecting the DEN experience prematurely on GB, and if so, I & the others will be wrong. It's not like we know. It's just that there's more than just knee-jerk reactivity going on here, that's my main point. All good either way, excellent talk. Agreed. I'd theres actually a grown-man, irreconcilable disconnect between the two, MM is out. I know a lot of fans think there is. But there's no reason to think that other than attributing a lack of success to...something. I've never heard a current or former player say a bad word about MM. Quite the opposite. He's truly a player's coach, so I am not so sure there is a difference between them. I just think that the trio of Gute, MM and Rodgers still gives this team the best shot for the next 5 years. Really good coaches are rare. Denver didn't adequately replace Fox, and that list is long. Change for changes sake is the wrong move. If you have a guy you actually, truly, madly, deeply believe will be better. Fine. Hire him. But that list is really really really really short. MM is one of the better coaches in NFL history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, incognito_man said: Agreed. I'd theres actually a grown-man, irreconcilable disconnect between the two, MM is out. I know a lot of fans think there is. But there's no reason to think that other than attributing a lack of success to...something. I've never heard a current or former player say a bad word about MM. Quite the opposite. He's truly a player's coach, so I am not so sure there is a difference between them. I just think that the trio of Gute, MM and Rodgers still gives this team the best shot for the next 5 years. Really good coaches are rare. Denver didn't adequately replace Fox, and that list is long. Change for changes sake is the wrong move. If you have a guy you actually, truly, madly, deeply believe will be better. Fine. Hire him. But that list is really really really really short. MM is one of the better coaches in NFL history. Yeah, it's hard to argue that change alone will succeed. The only way to remove doubt on the last statement - if McCarthy can replicate that same level of success elsewhere (or without ARod). I know that doesn't help you, but there it is. If he brings success to his next org, then that last line's take is vindicated. If he struggles next stop...well, you get the idea. Given how the NFL falls back on known commodities, I'm sure he'll find his way to another team shortly enough. Then at least we can address that last Q with more certainty lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, incognito_man said: Change for changes sake is the wrong move. If you have a guy you actually, truly, madly, deeply believe will be better. Fine. Hire him. But that list is really really really really short. MM is one of the better coaches in NFL history. So...the solution is to wait 2-3 years hoping that the talent level rises enough that McCarthy shows he's a capable playcaller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBURGE Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Just now, CWood21 said: So...the solution is to wait 2-3 years hoping that the talent level rises enough that McCarthy shows he's a capable playcaller? So... the solution is to fire McCarthy and hope that it truly was a coaching problem and not the talent level and QB play? There is no simple solution to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Yeah, it's hard to argue that change alone will succeed. The only way to remove doubt on the last statement - if McCarthy can replicate that same level of success elsewhere (or without ARod). I know that doesn't help you, but there it is. If he brings success to his next org, then that last line's take is vindicated. If he struggles next stop...well, you get the idea. Given how the NFL falls back on known commodities, I'm sure he'll find his way to another team shortly enough. Then at least we can address that last Q with more certainty lol. There's zero doubt that MM would have success elsewhere if he has talented players That's what it all hinges on, ultimately. I think he'd be hired immediately in Cleveland if he left GB. And I think there's talent there for him to work with. I'd become a closet Browns fan if that were to happen. Browns fans should be ecstatic if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, CWood21 said: So...the solution is to wait 2-3 years hoping that the talent level rises enough that McCarthy shows he's a capable playcaller? The world already knows he's a capable play caller... And yes, the solution is always to get better talent. I'm hopeful that is the case in 2019 already though with a crop of promising rookies in 2018, 2 first round picks and a load of cash for FAs. We have 3 blue chippers on offense. We have 1 on defense. Hopefully Alexander is another. Hopefully we can get one more and a couple reds this off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Just now, incognito_man said: The world already knows he's a capable play caller... And yes, the solution is always to get better talent. I'm hopeful that is the case in 2019 already though with a crop of promising rookies in 2018, 2 first round picks and a load of cash for FAs. We have 3 blue chippers on offense. We have 1 on defense. Hopefully Alexander is another. Hopefully we can get one more and a couple reds this off-season. So you're okay with us running ISO routes with Joe Nobody at WR? There's clearly a disconnect between Rodgers and McCarthy. I'm not sure what makes you think that's going to suddenly change with a bit more talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, JBURGE said: So... the solution is to fire McCarthy and hope that it truly was a coaching problem and not the talent level and QB play? There is no simple solution to this Oh, I agree. There's no easy answer. I see an issue between the QB and HC in terms of play calling, and I don't see a talent infusion suddenly fixing that issue. I see a HC who refuses to adapt his play calling to fit his personnel. And I see a QB whose trying to play outside of the scheme. You're not replacing Rodgers, so really the only option as far as change goes is the HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, CWood21 said: So you're okay with us running ISO routes with Joe Nobody at WR? There's clearly a disconnect between Rodgers and McCarthy. I'm not sure what makes you think that's going to suddenly change with a bit more talent. I'm not ok with you making stuff up. Like this nonsense about Iso routes. How many iso route concepts has MM run this season compared to the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBURGE Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Oh, I agree. There's no easy answer. I see an issue between the QB and HC in terms of play calling, and I don't see a talent infusion suddenly fixing that issue. I see a HC who refuses to adapt his play calling to fit his personnel. And I see a QB whose trying to play outside of the scheme. You're not replacing Rodgers, so really the only option as far as change goes is the HC. If we bring in a WR like Golden Tate (who I hate but for the sake of argument) to add to Adams, Allison, MVS and EQ, I think we are deep and strong at WR. We tried to bring Allen Robinson in this year. I don't have a concern with Gute trying to infuse talent, and I think with some more trust Aaron is looking the way of those WRs. I blame Aaron WAY more than Mike for the 3rd down problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, JBURGE said: If we bring in a WR like Golden Tate (who I hate but for the sake of argument) to add to Adams, Allison, MVS and EQ, I think we are deep and strong at WR. We tried to bring Allen Robinson in this year. I don't have a concern with Gute trying to infuse talent, and I think with some more trust Aaron is looking the way of those WRs. I blame Aaron WAY more than Mike for the 3rd down problems. I think there's a difference in bringing in Golden Tate and Allen Robinson. Allen Robinson was a good chance to buy low on a potential #1/#2 WR. Spotrac has projected Golden Tate at 3 years, $33M, which seems reasonable but is Tate at $11M/year really worth it? I'm not sure we're better off using that $11M elsewhere, and just giving those snaps to our young WRs. I think it's one thing to spend $5M or whatever on a guy like Tyrell Williams than spend on Tate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBURGE Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 34 minutes ago, CWood21 said: 48 minutes ago, JBURGE said: If we bring in a WR like Golden Tate (who I hate but for the sake of argument) to add to Adams, Allison, MVS and EQ, I think we are deep and strong at WR. We tried to bring Allen Robinson in this year. I don't have a concern with Gute trying to infuse talent, and I think with some more trust Aaron is looking the way of those WRs. I blame Aaron WAY more than Mike for the 3rd down problems. I think there's a difference in bringing in Golden Tate and Allen Robinson. Allen Robinson was a good chance to buy low on a potential #1/#2 WR. Spotrac has projected Golden Tate at 3 years, $33M, which seems reasonable but is Tate at $11M/year really worth it? I'm not sure we're better off using that $11M elsewhere, and just giving those snaps to our young WRs. I think it's one thing to spend $5M or whatever on a guy like Tyrell Williams than spend on Tate. Did u read what I said I have been a Tyrell Williams advocate on here as a 2019 free agent. Not as much as @Cadmus, but I would love that signing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, JBURGE said: Did u read what I said I have been a Tyrell Williams advocate on here as a 2019 free agent. Not as much as @Cadmus, but I would love that signing I tried to tune you out as much as possible. But on a more serious note, I don't really see talent level as being the issue with the WR group. Unless we're getting insane value, I don't really see the need to sign a WR. They're just going to take snaps away from our young WRs, and I don't see that happening as much more than a marginal upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 not sure why the packers offensive success is being attributed to mccarthy by some and not rodgers. rodgers is one of, the most talented qbs ever and weve seen him bail out the offense time amd time again. a certain someone whose arguing its a talent issue was arguing until he was ue in the face that thompson was among the best gms in the league. hes gone now though so its ok to throw him under the bus. mccarthys been a poor in game coach the last 3-4 years and his offense has gotten stale. packers would be much better off trying to find the next mcvay or shannahan then hoping mccarthy can update his offense next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBURGE Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 51 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I tried to tune you out as much as possible. But on a more serious note, I don't really see talent level as being the issue with the WR group. Unless we're getting insane value, I don't really see the need to sign a WR. They're just going to take snaps away from our young WRs, and I don't see that happening as much more than a marginal upgrade. In think the talent is there for MVS and EQ. but the trust with 12 and NFL readiness isn't. Therefore I have no problem signing a short term deal to a vet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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