Jump to content

Growing sense Packers move on from Mike McCarthy End of Season


Nick_gb

Recommended Posts

FWIW, I think you guys will be fine with MVS, ESB & Kumerow...next year.

2018's playoff chances have to die so your long-term future can live.

If anything, I think you guys need to move on from JG, and hit TE again in FA (since draft you're waiting 1, if not 2 years).   Otherwise, save the $ and use it elsewhere to help fortify the trenches and D.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

In think the talent is there for MVS and EQ. but the trust with 12 and NFL readiness isn't. Therefore I have no problem signing a short term deal to a vet

Maybe so.  But that trust isn't going to be there without the reps, and I think we're starting to see that trust build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

FWIW, I think you guys will be fine with MVS, ESB & Kumerow...next year.

2018's playoff chances have to die so your long-term future can live.

If anything, I think you guys need to move on from JG, and hit TE again in FA (since draft you're waiting 1, if not 2 years).   Otherwise, save the $ and use it elsewhere to help fortify the trenches and D.   

I definitely disagree about it's time to move on from Jimmy Graham.  By releasing Jimmy Graham, they only save about $5M.  And the FA class consists of Tyler Eifert, Jared Cook, and a bunch of meh.  They've probably already burned their bridges with Jared Cook and Tyler Eifert can't stay healthy.  They're not going to get an upgrade or even a borderline starter with the money saved.  I'd rather just stick with Graham at his current price and draft a mid-round athletic TE to develop behind him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I definitely disagree about it's time to move on from Jimmy Graham.  By releasing Jimmy Graham, they only save about $5M.  And the FA class consists of Tyler Eifert, Jared Cook, and a bunch of meh.  They've probably already burned their bridges with Jared Cook and Tyler Eifert can't stay healthy.  They're not going to get an upgrade or even a borderline starter with the money saved.  I'd rather just stick with Graham at his current price and draft a mid-round athletic TE to develop behind him.

It's unfortunate Cook is the only guy who's attractive.   I hadn't looked at the FA class, because frankly we're in no real position to legitimately contend, so FA TE's don't make a lot of sense (other than trying to cheaply re-sign Jeff Heuermann, which is definitely possible given his season-ending injury - I do like Maxx Williams as a value signing target for move TE's too, FWIW).   I see your point about no great options of at least established vets if it's only Cook and he won't return.   But man, JG looks done.   I get it's only 5M saved - but if you are counting on him to return to even 2017 form...man, that's a path I don't see.  We'll see. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I definitely disagree about it's time to move on from Jimmy Graham.  By releasing Jimmy Graham, they only save about $5M.  And the FA class consists of Tyler Eifert, Jared Cook, and a bunch of meh.  They've probably already burned their bridges with Jared Cook and Tyler Eifert can't stay healthy.  They're not going to get an upgrade or even a borderline starter with the money saved.  I'd rather just stick with Graham at his current price and draft a mid-round athletic TE to develop behind him.

I don't know if Cook would be opposed to coming back under a new GM and maybe new staff. Certainly seems unlikely but might happen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, JBURGE said:

I don't know if Cook would be opposed to coming back under a new GM and maybe new staff. Certainly seems unlikely but might happen. 

Ted Thompson gone, and McCarthy....hmm.   Man, that would be awesome in fantasy.   

I'll always have a soft spot for Cook - that dude made some good $$ for me in the NFC playoff game vs. DAL.    If he's willing to bury the hatchet, you guys should be ALL over that.  That would solve a lot of Q's of 2nd target (besides D-Adams) chemistry early on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I definitely disagree about it's time to move on from Jimmy Graham.  By releasing Jimmy Graham, they only save about $5M.  And the FA class consists of Tyler Eifert, Jared Cook, and a bunch of meh.  They've probably already burned their bridges with Jared Cook and Tyler Eifert can't stay healthy.  They're not going to get an upgrade or even a borderline starter with the money saved.  I'd rather just stick with Graham at his current price and draft a mid-round athletic TE to develop behind him.

Why do you think TEs don't tend to have huge years with GB? In the last 25 years, there have been 96 instances of TEs getting 800+ receiving yards in a season, and none of them have been on GB: http://pfref.com/tiny/3gZm6 .

JG, who had five such seasons with NO and SEA, is on pace for about 700 receiving yards this season.

I have no presumptions about why - it's just something I've noticed over the years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, CWood21 said:

So you're okay with us running ISO routes with Joe Nobody at WR?  There's clearly a disconnect between Rodgers and McCarthy.  I'm not sure what makes you think that's going to suddenly change with a bit more talent.

If you read the article I posted, the Packers were running ISO routes because that was what Rodgers was most comfortable with before. When McCarthy started incorporating new schemes like the one that McVay used, Rodgers still struggled because he likes to play sandlot style too much.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/26/green-bay-packers-offense-problems-mike-mccarthy-aaron-rodgers

Quote

That creativity lately has shown up on other plays, too. In fact, this season, McCarthy’s offensive scheme has evolved dramatically. Early in the year, it was mostly just the simple spread formations that propagate isolation routes—that’s the unimaginativeness McCarthy has been dogged for over the years. Most likely he played this way because it accommodated Rodgers’s sandlot tendencies. It worked when the Packers had the right veteran receivers. But with an aging Jordy Nelson gone, James Jones long gone, and Randall Cobb either out injured or not looking like himself, the Packers this season have had to rely on callow, rookie receivers who are not yet capable of getting open on their own or finding the defense’s soft spots when Rodgers extends plays.

So, McCarthy has scrapped some of the iso-spread passing concepts for newer-age designs. He has used spread formations this November about half as often as he did in September. More importantly, he’s used condensed formations, with receivers aligned tight to the formation, about three times as often. Those condensed sets are the same thing McVay uses in L.A. It gives receivers more field to work with, which propagates more schematic variables in the passing game and a more natural intertwinement of routes. It also creates congestion for a defense, rendering coverages more predictable. This makes it easier for a QB to anticipate open throws. And, receivers who align tight to the formation are in better position to block safeties in the running game, which makes play-action off of that even more believable. On a related note, the Packers have also employed more snaps of two-tight end personnel, which diversifies a scheme, particularly on the ground.

The results of McCarthy’s updated approach have been mixed, in part because Rodgers’s execution has been mixed. Still, it’s reasonable to keep McCarthy on the hot seat; even with his improved approach, he’s far from flawless. But when evaluating McCarthy, we must admit that his quarterback is far from flawless, too.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, JBURGE said:

In think the talent is there for MVS and EQ. but the trust with 12 and NFL readiness isn't. Therefore I have no problem signing a short term deal to a vet

This can be a double edged sword.  A vet would be great but wouldn't that vet take away reps from the young WRs we drafted last spring so it might take even longer for Rodgers to connect with these kids?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Pugger said:

This can be a double edged sword.  A vet would be great but wouldn't that vet take away reps from the young WRs we drafted last spring so it might take even longer for Rodgers to connect with these kids?

I don't buy that at all. They have practice, and you can still have the rookies on the field even with one more vet. When Cobb was out and Allison in, MVS was still getting a lot of snaps. 

I would love a group next year of Adams - VET (Tyrell Williams) - MVS - Allison - EQ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, incognito_man said:

Right. Nobody buys Mike McCarthy jerseys. It's the same thing that happened with Favre...

Bring in Jim Harbaugh ;)

He'd be my top choice if we make the mistake of letting MM go.

It'd be rough for Bears, Lions and Vikings fans if McCarthy got canned. I hope he stays!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SI's deeper dive into the situation. It seems everyone has to share the blame. From Ted Thompson to McCarthy to Rodgers himself.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/29/green-bay-packers-problems-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-ted-thompson

Quote

Thompson was devoted to a strict draft-and-develop model, rarely signing free agents or making trades; it drove Green Bay’s success during the most of his tenure. But the draft-and-develop model falls apart quickly if the team doesn’t draft well. For instance, of the Packers’ eight draft picks in 2015, just one remains on the roster, linebacker Jake Ryan (who is currently on injured reserve). Only wideout Davante Adams and center Corey Linsley remain from 2014’s nine-man class. But even as holes in the roster began to show the past few years, the Packers remained conservative in free agency.

Some in the organization felt the reduced talent on the roster put a strain on the coaching staff. And many in the front office were frustrated as well. Sources familiar with the inner workings of the organization said that lower level personnel employees explored trades and initiated conversations with other teams, around three or four times each year, but they could never get far without the ability to counter offer, which would require Thompson’s cooperation and approval. Scouts on the pro side were often frustrated because they felt like their hard work went to waste. They would spend weeks putting together reports on all the available free agents, and Thompson would rarely sign any. At various points during Thompson’s tenure, the Packers had chances to land Randy Moss, Marshawn Lynch (a collegiate teammate of Rodgers’s) and Tony Gonzalez, but did not move on any of them. (A team spokesperson declined an interview request for Thompson.)

 

Quote

McCarthy, like Rodgers, is an alpha male. When people familiar with the two were asked to describe their relationship, most say it is defined by tension. Until this year, it was a healthy tension that lifted both quarterback and coach. In 2018, something has been different.

McCarthy is the play caller, but because Rodgers is so intelligent and such a good improvisational player, the quarterback has the green light to change plays on the field as he see fit. He does, so often that it can be hard for McCarthy to get into a rhythm as the play caller. McCarthy might call the same play three times in a game, without the play actually being run as he called it. And if McCarthy calls a play that Rodgers doesn’t like early in the game, that can sour the mood for the rest of the game. Several sources familiar with the inner workings of the organization say that it devolved into a competition over who can call the better play, and both want the credit when things go right.

 

I thought this part was hilarious with regards to Holmgren, Favre, and Andy Reid.

Quote

You don’t have to look too far back in Packers lore to find how that tension can help fuel greatness. Former Packers head coach Mike Holmgren and quarterback Brett Favre were also known for their fiery spats. Matt Hasselbeck was a backup quarterback in Green Bay from 1998 to 2000. He says that Holmgren would threaten to fire Andy Reid, Favre’s beloved quarterback coach at the time, whenever he felt the quarterback was stepping out of line. “If you change the play one more time, I will fire Andy Reid. Do you want him to be unemployed? It was a good way to reach Brett, quite honestly,” Hasselbeck says. “Brett loved Andy, so it was like, No, anything but that! I think that kind of tension is fairly normal.”

 

This part seems the most convoluted with regards to how the communication worked.

Quote

On Saturdays before games, McCarthy and Rodgers go over which plays Rodgers likes and wants to keep and which plays he wants cut from the game plan. Though the two meet individually three to four times each week during the season, a source close to the quarterback says that, because McCarthy has other duties as the head coach, he misses several offensive install meetings or quarterback meetings, a source of frustration for Rodgers because McCarthy will add or change plays during the Saturday walkthroughs that mess with the established flow of the game plan.

Green Bay’s No. 2 quarterback, Kizer, and third string quarterback Tim Boyle, do their best to patch up any disconnect during games. As part of their roles as backups, they are both working to improve in-game communication between the head coach and the starter. Kizer and Boyle act as translators on the sideline, relaying checks Rodgers might make that McCarthy doesn’t have the angle to see, or the coach misses while looking at his play sheet. “We are kind of the liason from Aaron to Coach McCarthy,” Boyle says. “Our eyes are always on Aaron, seeing what he checks to, what he adjusts to, so when he comes back to the sideline we can relay that to Coach McCarthy.”

Because Rodgers has so much freedom, McCarthy’s frustration often comes from not knowing what check his quarterback went to and why. Kizer and Boyle have typically been in more conversations with Rodgers throughout the week, and sometimes explain his decisions to McCarthy in order to better set up future play calls. Early in the fourth quarter in Detroit this season, the Packers offense was running no huddle. Rodgers and Kizer had a few conversations on the sideline before the series about wanting to create matchup issues with Lions cornerback Darius Slay, bringing Adams inside, rather than lining him up outside. The QBs decided on a series of three playcalls focused on Adams, having him run crossers or sit down in the flat to eventually set up an out route that resulted in a red-zone touchdown. McCarthy wasn’t part of those conversations, so the quarterbacks explained that series to him afterward.

Boyle doesn’t dress for games. He stands near McCarthy on the sideline for most of the game and reviews pictures with him after every drive, while Kizer sits on the bench with Rodgers and quarterback coach Frank Cignetti Jr. “I’m trying to help him see what Aaron is seeing and improve that coordination,” Boyle says. “Aaron is so locked in, Coach McCarthy is so locked in, I'm kind of trying to help them communicate.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Packers have some talented young receivers.  They are bound to make mistakes, but you've got to let them go through the learning process.  This business about Rodgers not being able to trust them shouldn't hold any water when you are losing games.  Someone needs to tell Rodgers that he is the highest paid player in the league and that's part of the reason why the team needs to go with more youth on the roster.  When you are being paid that much, it's up to YOU to work with those inexperienced players and still find a way to win.  Excuses shouldn't cut it when you get the huge contract. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...