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Should the Lions trade Stafford?

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2 hours ago, IDOG_det said:

Spending on players and drafting them high is nice, but that doesn't ultimately = having good surrounding talent. They shipped off Golden Tate and Eric Ebron seemingly without any backup plan to replace them. Marvin Jones and Kenny Golladay excel as vertical threats yet are rarely used as such in the structure of the offense. LeGarrette Blount is washed up yet they keep giving him the ball to waste a down when they could instead be putting Kerryon Johnson or Theo Riddick on the field to run a legit play. Despite all the resources spent (which, really, has been about league-average) they were playing with LeGarrette Blount, TJ Jones, Bruce Ellington, Andy Jones, Zach Zenner, Luke Willson, Levine Toilolo, Michael Roberts, and Nick Bellore as the majority of their skill players in the offense yesterday. They only have Marvin Jones, Kenny Golladay, Kerryon Johnson, and Theo Riddick as legitimate weapons, and two of them are hurt. You can't operate an offense with 4 good skill players when you have to have 5 on the field at all times. That falls on Bob Quinn and the offensive staff, not Stafford. It's not up to Stafford to evaluate talent and provide the depth for this team. It's not up to Stafford to develop the backups into serviceable players.

Stafford isn't an elite quarterback, that's true. He isn't Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, Mahomes, Rivers, or even Roethlisberger. But he's still in the conversation right behind those guys with Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, Carson Wentz, Deshaun Watson, etc. He doesn't need the best talent at every position. He just needs to be surrounded by NFL talent, just like the rest of those guys. He isn't Peyton Manning where he can take any random castoff WR and turn them into an efficient target, but that's essentially what he's being asked to do. 

You're right that Stafford can make changes at the line, but that doesn't mean he can change it to whatever he wants. He still has to change it to something that's within the offense 99.99% of the time. And, the reliance on him making line calls (which is something he doesn't get credit for despite it being one of his strengths) actually hurts the offense as well. The Lions are one of the slowest offenses in the league and they are one of the most predictable offenses in the league. They go to the line and get set with roughly 15 seconds on the playclock, Stafford makes his call, and they snap the ball typically with 8 seconds or less on the playclock. This lets the opposing defensive line tee-off on the offensive line because they basically know the snap count on every play because Stafford doesn't really have time for a hard count. Then, because the offensive line is at a disadvantage and also because they don't have skill players that get quick separation, they have to choose between getting Stafford killed with a seasons-worth amount of sacks in two games or running an offense that mostly treats the pass as an extension of the run game by keeping damn near every target within ~6-8 yards of the LOS (thus eliminating your best WRs and basically any hope at an explosive play). None of that is on Stafford. He's doing the best he can in a terrible situation that has no legitimate excuse for becoming that bad. Blaming it on Stafford or speculating on why you might get rid of him if it were financially possible just doesn't make sense to me because he isn't the one responsible for this mess.

None of this is Matthew Staffords fault..

He's paided as a elite qb yet he needs so much...

His game is so predictable..

We constantly draft for him..

This has to  be a joke 

 

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56 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

In order to blow a 25 point lead in the Super Bowl you have to do something a Stafford lead team has never done, and he had to do it multiple times, that's win a playoff game. That was made easier by doing something else a Stafford lead team has never done, win the division. Also, earn a playoff bye week and home field advantage. Those kind of achievements have been known to earn QBs and coaches the benefit of the doubt.

It's why Flacco was allowed to be mediocre at best for several years before the Ravens even brought in competition. 

So I guess your answer to my original question. You don’t think Atlanta fans are having the same conversation as we are about Stafford? 

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1 minute ago, Lionized said:

So I guess your answer to my original question. You don’t think Atlanta fans are having the same conversation as we are about Stafford? 

I'd say that some probably are. I'd bet many aren't interested in talking about it though. 

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14 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'd say that some probably are. I'd bet many aren't interested in talking about it though. 

I was curious and went and looked in their forum but sadly theirs is more dead than ours. 

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1 hour ago, Lionized said:

So I guess your answer to my original question. You don’t think Atlanta fans are having the same conversation as we are about Stafford? 

How about you go ask ATL fans who they rather have, then general football fans, and based on those two answers you'll see how relevant your question even is. 

 

I mean idk, I don't think people realize Alex Smith was about to lead three different teams to the playoffs. Winning playoff games on two of them and Staffords only been to the show twice period... That been said two organizations basically also gave up on Smith while fans here and still clamoring/defending/hailing Stafford as something... great, and none of the losing is his fault.

Edited by SimbaWho

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5 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

How about you go ask ATL fans who they rather have, then general football fans, and based on those two answers you'll see how relevant your question even is. 

Wow someone is salty today. 

Am I not aloud to through out general questions to the forum that I’m most involved in?

Like I said about Atl forum is more dead than our anyway. 

Edited by Lionized

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4 minutes ago, Lionized said:

Wow someone is salty today. 

Am I not aloud to through out general questions to the forum that I’m most involved in?

I'm not salty or anything I'm just tossing it back at you like... Whats your point with that question? 

Most people except Detroit fans will say Matt Ryan is a better QB than Matt Stafford. Which for perspective outside of Detroit, I said ask other forums...

Edited by SimbaWho

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16 hours ago, IDOG_det said:

The Lions would incur a $49,000,000 dead cap charge if they got rid of Stafford. It would escalate to $55,000,000 if they get rid of him after the 5th day of the 2019 league year. He is this teams QB. Better get used to that because he isn't going anywhere. And, he shouldn't be going anywhere. He's one of the best QBs in the league being forced to play in an antiquated offense, he's been given minimal talent at WR and TE, they've force fed a washed up running back who essentially forces the offense into being a 2-down offense rather than a 3-down offense, and as of late there's been a revolving door starting at right guard. I don't know how anyone can honestly look at this offense and look at this team and conclude that Matthew Stafford is the problem. 

This is the exact argument I've been making with my friends when they suggest moving on from Stafford.

We have 4 potential "playmakers;" Kerryon Johnson, Theo Riddick, Marvin Jones, and Kenny Golladay.
Two are out injured, one has never run the ball well, and the other is Golladay (who's played well).

But that doesn't leave a lot of options for Stafford. Our offense is a shell of the dynamic offense we had a few years ago.
We have a vertical QB / WRs yet insist on running a horizontal offense. 

As of yesterdays games; I put the first INT on Stafford. Maybe he didn't see the CB, idk. But he had one option and never looked away.
The second INT to close the game seemed like a lack of effort / wrong route from Roberts. 

Stafford has certainly been better. But no one can say that we've helped him out by putting talent around him - because he may have among the worse talent on offense in the NFL.

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1 minute ago, SimbaWho said:

I'm not salty or anything I'm just tossing it back at you like... Whats your point with that question? People complained about Philip Rivers at times too in SD but if you go ask them about Stafford vs Philip... yeah you'll get an answer that isn't equal. 

The only point I was bringing up about Stafford and Ryan is they are both making mega money and are both struggling this specific year. 

I was looking for the people in this specific forum to get some feedback on their thoughts. Because I care more about your thoughts than Atlanta’s or the general forum. 

I was throwing out for the sake of conversation I wasn’t taking a side or stabbing at any side. 

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27 minutes ago, Lionized said:

The only point I was bringing up about Stafford and Ryan is they are both making mega money and are both struggling this specific year. 

I was looking for the people in this specific forum to get some feedback on their thoughts. Because I care more about your thoughts than Atlanta’s or the general forum. 

I was throwing out for the sake of conversation I wasn’t taking a side or stabbing at any side. 

Well, for a struggling Matt Ryan he's got a 70% completion percentage, 24tds to 5 ints, 6 fumbles, 110 passer rating, high QBrating(above 70). Idk man... Really they're not comparable at all and ATL struggles don't have to do with Ryan as much as the run game falling out on them and the defense being worst than ours. 

One is for sure struggling, and the other is struggling to win games for his team. Not to mention he's Statthew Padford.... He's putting up numbers late in games when nothing matters and defense are basically in prevent. 

The comparable play, right now - this year, for Stafford outside of arm strength is Ryan Fitzpatrick as a Bill/Jet/Texan. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not saying that's who he is, but, i'm at that point to where he's like Alex Smith. Good enough to start, not good enough to be my teams best player and take tons of money. 

* Scary comparable career's with Jay Cutler... giphy.gif

Edited by SimbaWho

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On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, Nnivolcm said:

I'd say that some probably are. I'd bet many aren't interested in talking about it though. 

Not that we should be taking our cues off of the beat writers, however, there are a number of them who are asking the same questions.

The purpose of this (for me anyway) is: a) Are we able to build a competitive team around Stafford in the next 2-3 years? and b) Would we be a better team in 3 years with a QB change (assuming that we would trade him for compensation somehow)?

Stafford is still a top 15 QB in my mind talent wise. He's also a bit older and has a rather limited window. Are we able to put things together with the pieces that we have to be a regular playoff contender in 3 years? If the answer is no, then we have to determine whether we can trust this front office to rebuild a team that can be.

I think the jury is still out on whether the Bob Quinn/Matt Patricia partnership will lead us towards success. We are generally better with Stafford at the helm IMO. He has willed us back and won games. He has outstanding mental toughness. My principal concern is how far off are we from a roster that can compete with for the division title. There seems to be a number of significant gaps on both sides of the ball.

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On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:55 PM, IDOG_det said:

The Lions would incur a $49,000,000 dead cap charge if they got rid of Stafford. It would escalate to $55,000,000 if they get rid of him after the 5th day of the 2019 league year. He is this teams QB. Better get used to that because he isn't going anywhere. And, he shouldn't be going anywhere. He's one of the best QBs in the league being forced to play in an antiquated offense, he's been given minimal talent at WR and TE, they've force fed a washed up running back who essentially forces the offense into being a 2-down offense rather than a 3-down offense, and as of late there's been a revolving door starting at right guard. I don't know how anyone can honestly look at this offense and look at this team and conclude that Matthew Stafford is the problem. 

 

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:11 AM, IDOG_det said:

Spending on players and drafting them high is nice, but that doesn't ultimately = having good surrounding talent. They shipped off Golden Tate and Eric Ebron seemingly without any backup plan to replace them. Marvin Jones and Kenny Golladay excel as vertical threats yet are rarely used as such in the structure of the offense. LeGarrette Blount is washed up yet they keep giving him the ball to waste a down when they could instead be putting Kerryon Johnson or Theo Riddick on the field to run a legit play. Despite all the resources spent (which, really, has been about league-average) they were playing with LeGarrette Blount, TJ Jones, Bruce Ellington, Andy Jones, Zach Zenner, Luke Willson, Levine Toilolo, Michael Roberts, and Nick Bellore as the majority of their skill players in the offense yesterday. They only have Marvin Jones, Kenny Golladay, Kerryon Johnson, and Theo Riddick as legitimate weapons, and two of them are hurt. You can't operate an offense with 4 good skill players when you have to have 5 on the field at all times. That falls on Bob Quinn and the offensive staff, not Stafford. It's not up to Stafford to evaluate talent and provide the depth for this team. It's not up to Stafford to develop the backups into serviceable players.

Stafford isn't an elite quarterback, that's true. He isn't Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, Mahomes, Rivers, or even Roethlisberger. But he's still in the conversation right behind those guys with Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, Carson Wentz, Deshaun Watson, etc. He doesn't need the best talent at every position. He just needs to be surrounded by NFL talent, just like the rest of those guys. He isn't Peyton Manning where he can take any random castoff WR and turn them into an efficient target, but that's essentially what he's being asked to do. 

You're right that Stafford can make changes at the line, but that doesn't mean he can change it to whatever he wants. He still has to change it to something that's within the offense 99.99% of the time. And, the reliance on him making line calls (which is something he doesn't get credit for despite it being one of his strengths) actually hurts the offense as well. The Lions are one of the slowest offenses in the league and they are one of the most predictable offenses in the league. They go to the line and get set with roughly 15 seconds on the playclock, Stafford makes his call, and they snap the ball typically with 8 seconds or less on the playclock. This lets the opposing defensive line tee-off on the offensive line because they basically know the snap count on every play because Stafford doesn't really have time for a hard count. Then, because the offensive line is at a disadvantage and also because they don't have skill players that get quick separation, they have to choose between getting Stafford killed with a seasons-worth amount of sacks in two games or running an offense that mostly treats the pass as an extension of the run game by keeping damn near every target within ~6-8 yards of the LOS (thus eliminating your best WRs and basically any hope at an explosive play). None of that is on Stafford. He's doing the best he can in a terrible situation that has no legitimate excuse for becoming that bad. Blaming it on Stafford or speculating on why you might get rid of him if it were financially possible just doesn't make sense to me because he isn't the one responsible for this mess.

Agree with all of your points. 100%. My question really stems from this: How quickly can we remedy this with the talent required to be competitive? Are we just a couple guys away? Could a coaching change (OC) eliminate a lot of the issues?

Stafford has about 5-6 really good years left. The BQ/MP duo has about 3 years to really show they're on the right track in turning this around. Either they get things off the ground and we are perennial playoff contenders for the next 5 years or we're looking at another coaching change and/or rookie QB in 2021.

According to OTC, Stafford could be a June 1st cut in 2020 which would open up $21M of cap space and dead cap of $10M. If they are going to make any moves, it seems that this would be the year they would move on that.

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I There was an article on Facebook that talked about the Jaguars trading their 1st and 4th round pick for Stafford. 

Hypothetically, 

ed Oliver taken at 6

devin white taken at 8

As much as I would love to have that added I’d feel like we gave up on him too soon. He’s had some issues here and there and IMO I don’t think his style is good for the scheme. 

I also feel like it could end up being where Stafford would flip us the bird and curse the franchise for 50 years on his way to a couple rings. 

That would be the Lion finish on that scenario. 

I would love to add Oliver and White to this defense though. 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, theuntouchable said:

I also feel like it could end up being where Stafford would flip us the bird and curse the franchise for 50 years on his way to a couple rings.

First thing I thought of. It would be fitting of us to jettison the best QB we've had in 60ish years in the exact same fashion.

 

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my thought is if we trade Stafford who we bringing in?????? I heard this rookie class(if all declare) isn't that good.. do we make a play for Winston, Flacco, Carr etc... for better(mostly) or worse Stafford gives us the best bet at qb... maybe the best thing is to get rid jbc???

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