Jump to content

Ok so why does the Rams defense suck?


Apparition

Recommended Posts

The Rams' D flaws IMO comes down to 3 aspects:

1.  Their ILB's Littleton and Barron are clearly a weakness in run D.   Also can be beat in pass coverage.

2.   Their EDGE rush is almost non-existent.   Fowler Jr. is trying to add some juice, but man, he's so undisciplined (so many offsides penalties, and easily gets caught in misdirection plays).   That lack of discipline also hurts the run D when they don't set an effective edge.

3.   Peters as a #1 guy is a problem, because at his peak, he's still a big play CB - both ways.   You can't have him as your #1 CB.   Talib as the #1 will help, but keep in mind that his ability to cover guys on his own is really with big-body types and reading the CB - quick-twitch guys give him a ton of trouble, and he was especially vulnerable in crossing routes.   But there's also no doubt he'd upgrade the secondary simply by having Peters match up with the #2 guy, instead of Peters routinely getting roasted by the #1 guy (still making big splash plays, but giving up more splash plays in return).

Having said the above, if Fowler adjusts to the system and Talib returns, there are 2 fewer ways to attack this D.   The key to this D is that once the O gives them a lead, their attack mode with Talib/Peters can generate more TO's than when they are trailing or it's a one-score game.   Frankly, we see this a lot with different D's - NO's resurgence on D in part has to do with Davenport adding more pass rush, in part with Anzalone bringing high-level ILB play in run support underneath coverage and in part with Apple replacing Crawley at 2nd CB, where they were getting killed.   But a huge part of it is once they are up 2+ scores, O's become so predictable, it's pin-your-ears back and start-sitting-on-certain routes time, and then the sacks/TO's start flowing.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Riftty said:

I don't think he will make all that much of a difference honestly. But he won't hurt? He won't be able to stop Thomas or Hill if/when we face them again...

 

I can agree with you about Hill. Not many people can stop him with his speed. I disagree though about Thomas. Talib can match up with Thomas and has the ability to slow him down. Like tell me, what is the difference between Tru Johnson last season holding Thomas to 5 catches for 52yds and what Talib can do? No way you can tell me Tru is a better cornerback than Talib. If you do then its totally your opinion. Thats coming from a guy who really like Tru too but Talib is the one guy you want to have as the guy you put on Thomas, Adams, etc... When Talib was with the Broncos, he matched up against Gronk. 

I find it funny though that before Talib got hurt, NOBODY was saying the Rams secondary sucked. When he got hurt the secondary obviously regressed. Its no different than the Saints running attack without Ingram through the first 4 games. The Saints was at the bottom of pretty much every rushing category without Ingram. When they got Ingram back they are back to running the football well. Then you look at the game the Saints almost lost to the Browns. The lack of a running game almost cost them that game. And I told my friend (who is a Saints fan), that the media gives so much praise and hype to Kamara that the first 4 games of the season without Ingram showed me Ingram is more valuable. So thats how I view Talib in the Rams secondary. The Rams need his presence back and when he comes back everyone is going to see the big difference he makes on that defense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

I can agree with you about Hill. Not many people can stop him with his speed. I disagree though about Thomas. Talib can match up with Thomas and has the ability to slow him down. Like tell me, what is the difference between Tru Johnson last season holding Thomas to 5 catches for 52yds and what Talib can do? No way you can tell me Tru is a better cornerback than Talib. If you do then its totally your opinion. Thats coming from a guy who really like Tru too but Talib is the one guy you want to have as the guy you put on Thomas, Adams, etc... When Talib was with the Broncos, he matched up against Gronk. 

I find it funny though that before Talib got hurt, NOBODY was saying the Rams secondary sucked. When he got hurt the secondary obviously regressed. Its no different than the Saints running attack without Ingram through the first 4 games. The Saints was at the bottom of pretty much every rushing category without Ingram. When they got Ingram back they are back to running the football well. Then you look at the game the Saints almost lost to the Browns. The lack of a running game almost cost them that game. And I told my friend (who is a Saints fan), that the media gives so much praise and hype to Kamara that the first 4 games of the season without Ingram showed me Ingram is more valuable. So thats how I view Talib in the Rams secondary. The Rams need his presence back and when he comes back everyone is going to see the big difference he makes on that defense. 

We also faced the raiders and cards in our first two games...that's hardly something to hang your hat on.... 

2 games is such a small sample size. We will not know what we have with Talib and Peters until the post season honestly. There is no QB/receivers left on our schedule that will really test that.

Talib will clearly help, but saying that our defense will suddenly wake up and be elite once he is back is being overly optimistic.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Riftty said:

We also faced the raiders and cards in our first two games...that's hardly something to hang your hat on.... 

2 games is such a small sample size. We will not know what we have with Talib and Peters until the post season honestly. There is no QB/receivers left on our schedule that will really test that.

Talib will clearly help, but saying that our defense will suddenly wake up and be elite once he is back is being overly optimistic.

 

Ok I get that we played the Raiders and the Cards. The thing I find funny is how many people came into the season saying "the Rams secondary is going to suck BUT if they look good the first 2 weeks just remember its because they played the Raiders and Cards?" Nobody did. Its really not just the fact that the Rams played those teams. It was the mentality those teams had. You do realize the Raiders and Cards didnt even throw at Talib and Peters? Those teams attacked the Rams with their slot receiver, tight end, and pass catching backs. They didnt throw at Talib and Peters. Now we look at the Chargers game, Rivers threw at Talib and Peters. Peters struggled against Williams. Mainly because Williams had the size advantage and on some of those passes Williams just out jumped Peters and got the ball. On the other side, Talib held Allen to 3 catches for 44yds and caused him to fumble. I personally think Peters feel more comfortable and confident when he knows Talib is on the opposite. I think the secondary doesnt get in total chaos much when Talib in on the field getting everyone on the same page. Like Ill say it again, that 70+yd catch by Thomas when Peters was trying to communicate with the defense wouldve never happen if that was Talib. We are talking about a vet who knows the ends and out of what Wade whats to do in Talib over a still young guy who is in his first season in Wade system and is "the guy" in the secondary without Talib. Peters is talented no doubt but he is still trying to learn and get better. Thats why from day one he has been following Talib trying to learn from him. So Im expecting the defense to be way better than it was when Talib comes back. Not saying the Rams still wont give up rushing yards or yards to the tight end. As it comes to not being able to stop any and every receiver though, I think with Talib back the Rams will be able to start slowing down the likes of Thomas and Adams because Talib on them is a better matchup than Peters being on them. That goes a very long way when you can slow down the opposing teams top receiving option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Broncofan said:

 Peters as a #1 guy is a problem, because at his peak, he's still a big play CB - both ways.   You can't have him as your #1 CB. 

He did well as the #1 in KC. I think the big issue with him there is the usage. In KC, he rarely moved around the field. He locked down the left side and did well with that. Wade is moving him all over.

There's probably more to it than that. But that's the biggest difference that I've seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

I can agree with you about Hill. Not many people can stop him with his speed. I disagree though about Thomas. Talib can match up with Thomas and has the ability to slow him down. Like tell me, what is the difference between Tru Johnson last season holding Thomas to 5 catches for 52yds and what Talib can do? No way you can tell me Tru is a better cornerback than Talib. If you do then its totally your opinion. Thats coming from a guy who really like Tru too but Talib is the one guy you want to have as the guy you put on Thomas, Adams, etc... When Talib was with the Broncos, he matched up against Gronk. 

I find it funny though that before Talib got hurt, NOBODY was saying the Rams secondary sucked. When he got hurt the secondary obviously regressed. Its no different than the Saints running attack without Ingram through the first 4 games. The Saints was at the bottom of pretty much every rushing category without Ingram. When they got Ingram back they are back to running the football well. Then you look at the game the Saints almost lost to the Browns. The lack of a running game almost cost them that game. And I told my friend (who is a Saints fan), that the media gives so much praise and hype to Kamara that the first 4 games of the season without Ingram showed me Ingram is more valuable. So thats how I view Talib in the Rams secondary. The Rams need his presence back and when he comes back everyone is going to see the big difference he makes on that defense. 

Oh my god people actually believe this??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Oh my god people actually believe this??

My friend actually agreed with me lol. I even said that when the offseason comes, the Saints need to make sure they keep Ingram. If they had any thoughts about moving on from Ingram and just have Kamara as their main back and just find any back for depth to back him up that thought should be erased. Ingram means alot to the running game and it showed the in his absence whether or not you want to believe me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, stl4life07 said:

My friend actually agreed with me lol. I even said that when the offseason comes, the Saints need to make sure they keep Ingram. If they had any thoughts about moving on from Ingram and just have Kamara as their main back and just find any back for depth to back him up that thought should be erased. Ingram means alot to the running game and it showed the in his absence whether or not you want to believe me.

Then you and your buddy are wrong. Kamara is more important to our offense than Ingram. Ingram is a great RB. Kamara is an elite RB. The Saints averaged 34.25 points on offense in 4 games without Ingram. They went 3-1 without Ingram. Having Ingram doesn't stop the Bucs from putting 48 points against our defense week 1.

Kamara averaged 153 yards of offense, and had 6 touchdowns in 4 games without Ingram to start this year. 

Ingram is certainly a nice piece for us to have right now as he is likely a top 10 RB, which is a luxury most teams don't have as a number 2 RB. On several of Ingram's big plays this year Kamara has been on the field drawing attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Then you and your buddy are wrong. Kamara is more important to our offense than Ingram. Ingram is a great RB. Kamara is an elite RB. The Saints averaged 34.25 points on offense in 4 games without Ingram. They went 3-1 without Ingram. Having Ingram doesn't stop the Bucs from putting 48 points against our defense week 1.

Kamara averaged 153 yards of offense, and had 6 touchdowns in 4 games without Ingram to start this year. 

Ingram is certainly a nice piece for us to have right now as he is likely a top 10 RB, which is a luxury most teams don't have as a number 2 RB. On several of Ingram's big plays this year Kamara has been on the field drawing attention.

All those were receiving Yards friend. Not running. He was very poor at running the ball 3 out of the 4 games. Context matters. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, El ramster said:

All those were receiving Yards friend. Not running. He was very poor at running the ball 3 out of the 4 games. Context matters. 

If we were to box score scout that would almost be accurate, but he had 5 rushing touchdowns in 4 games. The Saints OL started off slow in the run game this year and started to improve after a couple games.

Look at those averages that Kamara's backup RB had in the first 4 games (Gillislee 2.7 ypc). If an Offensive Line is blocking well any NFL caliber RB can hit over 3 yards a carry. Just look at Malcolm Brown with the Rams he is averaging 5 yards per carry this year because the Rams have been creating huge holes. Kamara's averages the first 2 games were a product of the offensive line not doing well run blocking, and if you disagree please provide me with examples of Kamara missing holes otherwise it is simply evident you are basing this off a box score.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

If we were to box score scout that would almost be accurate, but he had 5 rushing touchdowns in 4 games. The Saints OL started off slow in the run game this year and started to improve after a couple games.

Look at those averages that Kamara's backup RB had in the first 4 games (Gillislee 2.7 ypc). If an Offensive Line is blocking well any NFL caliber RB can hit over 3 yards a carry. Just look at Malcolm Brown with the Rams he is averaging 5 yards per carry this year because the Rams have been creating huge holes. Kamara's averages the first 2 games were a product of the offensive line not doing well run blocking, and if you disagree please provide me with examples of Kamara missing holes otherwise it is simply evident you are basing this off a box score.

Excuses blah blah blah. Blah. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Then you and your buddy are wrong. Kamara is more important to our offense than Ingram. Ingram is a great RB. Kamara is an elite RB. The Saints averaged 34.25 points on offense in 4 games without Ingram. They went 3-1 without Ingram. Having Ingram doesn't stop the Bucs from putting 48 points against our defense week 1.

Kamara averaged 153 yards of offense, and had 6 touchdowns in 4 games without Ingram to start this year. 

Ingram is certainly a nice piece for us to have right now as he is likely a top 10 RB, which is a luxury most teams don't have as a number 2 RB. On several of Ingram's big plays this year Kamara has been on the field drawing attention.

Kamara is elite. He doesnt solve the Saints running problems they had without Ingram. I think if Ingram was there, they beat the Bucs and they beat the Browns more convincingly. The Saints defense wasnt stopping the Bucs offense. You know how you stop the Bucs offense? Turn around and hand the ball off. You know why the Saints didnt do that? Because Kamara 8 for 29 3.6ypc, Gillislee 3 for 9 3.0pyc, Williams 1 for 0 0ypc. Do you realize the Bucs and Saints game was 48-40? Thats not that far off from the 54-51 Chiefs and Rams game. But yeah I totally think if Ingram was playing in that Week 1 game the score wouldnt have been what it was and I think the Saints wouldve won. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

Kamara is elite. He doesnt solve the Saints running problems they had without Ingram.

He does as he is an elite RB.

Quote

I think if Ingram was there, they beat the Bucs and they beat the Browns more convincingly.

What holes was he going to run through? Our OL was struggling the first couple weeks and improved in week 3 as someone that has watched every Saints snap this year. Ingram doesn't stop the Bucs and Fitzmagic tearing our defense apart. Kamara still had 3 rushing touchdowns in that game.

Quote

The Saints defense wasnt stopping the Bucs offense. You know how you stop the Bucs offense? Turn around and hand the ball off. You know why the Saints didnt do that? Because Kamara 8 for 29 3.6ypc, Gillislee 3 for 9 3.0pyc, Williams 1 for 0 0ypc. Do you realize the Bucs and Saints game was 48-40? Thats not that far off from the 54-51 Chiefs and Rams game. But yeah I totally think if Ingram was playing in that Week 1 game the score wouldnt have been what it was and I think the Saints wouldve won. 

Again we can't establish an effective run game against the Bucs if our defense gives up a touchdown every possession, and our run blocking isn't getting the job done. It's a silly point to try and say otherwise. There are several things that could have helped us beat the Bucs, but those are mostly on the defensive side of the ball and have nothing to do with Kamara or Ingram.

Probably should get back on topic though and get back to "why does the Rams defense suck"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rams tried to build a dream team and it doesn't work in the NFL. 

Suh started declining a few seasons ago and is better in a 4-3 than a 3-4. Peters is a malcontent and doesn't fit the scheme, which is why he's getting exposed. Fowler is a situational pass rushing bust that the Jags were happy to get what they got for him. Wade Phillips is 71 and might be time to hang it up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...