Pittsburgh @ Denver GDT--Maybe we don't suck?

[Broncofan]

Double post 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, AKRNA said:

Maybe you might want to reconsider. For the 1st time in my memory almost all of our rookies are playing like vets, our OL improvement despite losing Paradis and Leary is astounding, the team is well prepared every week and are playing their hearts out. 

Do you really want to take a chance at cratering that? I sure don't. 

Yeah, we had a good draft, but not this good. We put these kids in a great learning environment and man have they responded. So has the entire team. 

I completely agree with you that the way to success in this league is making maximum use of young talent. I think we may have the perfect staff to do just that.

Fire VJ and it all goes away.

 

When teams clean house the main coordinators go with them - in this case, Woods & Musgrave.   2nd-level coaches on successful units often stay (struggling units obv. change usually happens).   Kugler would be quite safe given our OL’s performance.   As long as Kugler and our strength guys are safe I’m totally unfazed by change over VJ’s utter mediocrity as a HC.  

We created a winning culture way before VJ got here.  It’s been an expectation that’s been sometimes led to our long term harm because of the need to win now when we aren’t that team.  But the culture is hard to somehow attribute to VJ.   I certainly wouldn’t be happy to move on Kugler and our strength crew - but the rest isn’t a reason for us to hesitate.  

The main reason to stand pat is if the pool of available HC is just meh.  Which is possible - if we don’t go QB early in the 2019 draft, we aren’t likely to get a top O mind, and that’s the main reason for change.  If we are waiting until 2020 to go QBOTF then it actually lends some reasoning to wait.  Which would make 2019 tough to watch on O.   But in the long run better for us given where we find ourselves now at QB.    

Even knowing that - I’d rather we not invest all our QB chips in 2019’s draft and give up our chance at 2020.   And that’s saying a lot given how little I think of Keenum’s ability to maintain even this level of play (which is barely-startable even now).   I’d rather see both VJ gone and us avoiding a bad Rd1 reach for QB - but the latter is far worse than the former.   Neither keeping VJ or going QB Rd1 in 2019  is a great result though. 

[champ11]

I think that it's still slim that we make the playoffs...so I still see it being likely that VJ is let go. Should be interesting though. 

[AKRNA]

4 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think that it's still slim that we make the playoffs...so I still see it being likely that VJ is let go. Should be interesting though. 

Yeah......, realistically though, do you really think we were going to the playoffs this year? Last year at this time we were falling apart. This year we've become that team that no one wants to play. Personally, I find the improvement pretty astounding. I think Elway probably does too. We've already matched our win total from last year, played great ball against the powerhouses in the NFL, and have a team that defines "kicking and screaming".

If I'm Elway I'd have a pretty hard time rocking this boat.

[champ11]

7 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Yeah......, realistically though, do you really think we were going to the playoffs this year? Last year at this time we were falling apart. This year we've become that team that no one wants to play. Personally, I find the improvement pretty astounding. I think Elway probably does too. We've already matched our win total from last year, played great ball against the powerhouses in the NFL, and have a team that defines "kicking and screaming".

If I'm Elway I'd have a pretty hard time rocking this boat.

I did not, but I'm not really taking expectations into account. My evaluation of Vance Joseph is that he is a bad head football coach. I'll definitely give props to him the last couple of weeks for saving the season from the brink....after coaching decisions directly led to a loss at home against an average Houston team. 

I think we have some really great young talent (well done Elway) and I would like to see it with a better coach. I'm completely fine with VJ making it until the end of the season regardless of what happens the rest of the way, I think that is the right move.

[thebestever6]

3 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I did not, but I'm not really taking expectations into account. My evaluation of Vance Joseph is that he is a bad head football coach. I'll definitely give props to him the last couple of weeks for saving the season from the brink....after coaching decisions directly led to a loss at home against an average Houston team. 

I think we have some really great young talent (well done Elway) and I would like to see it with a better coach. I'm completely fine with VJ making it until the end of the season regardless of what happens the rest of the way, I think that is the right move.

I'm in the same boat I'm actually more impressed of the veterans than VJ. VJ is a bad in game head  coach. But I guess he is some what of a leader or the veterans are just high character guys who are self accountable.  They did have a players only meeting after the jets game so this could be the case. 

I just think Vjs fate is sealed. Two  weeks ago we heard  Elway say he thought this team was better. They responded but I have a feeling Elways mind is made.

[AKRNA]

1 hour ago, champ11 said:

I did not, but I'm not really taking expectations into account. My evaluation of Vance Joseph is that he is a bad head football coach. I'll definitely give props to him the last couple of weeks for saving the season from the brink....after coaching decisions directly led to a loss at home against an average Houston team. 

I think we have some really great young talent (well done Elway) and I would like to see it with a better coach. I'm completely fine with VJ making it until the end of the season regardless of what happens the rest of the way, I think that is the right move.

I think my criteria for a HC may differ a bit from yours. The product put on the field is First and foremost. I want to see a  well prepared football team take the field and play their hearts out for 60 minutes. If they do that then I'm pretty pleased. Thats the HC.

We could always get a John Fox like coach thats awful at player development, conservative to a fault, but pretty good at game management, sideline appearance and in front of the cameras. His teams just never perform to potential. Of course, we wouldn't be getting the production from our 8+- rookies on the roster.

Anyway, I was on the dump VJ bandwagon after the Jets loss but our performance since is changing my mind. Who'd have thought we'd go 3-3 and take every game down to the wire against that schedule. I sure didn't. 

[Broncofan]

Well this news isn't good at all...

If Heurmann goes on IR, I'd imagine we get to see Jeff Holland activated to take Barrett's place.  

Sucks as Barrett was returning to form, but the one silver lining - it might allow us to re-sign him at a reasonable team-friendly level.  We really need it, given we only have 2 EDGE's signed for next year (4 with Holland).  Given we passed on Ray's 5th year option, there's pretty much zero chance he's returning (and no way we should pay FA-market $, even for a potential-only signing).   As Heurmann is a UFA as well, the same might apply.   A team-friendly deal for both in exchange for would do wonders for our 2019 roster depth on both sides.

[BroncoBruin]

I think AKRNA is on to something here. Guys have stepped in and been ready to play at almost every position. Assistant coaches like Modkins, Azzani, the OL guys etc. look to have made a big impression. And you have to credit VJ for that, he wanted to bring in his guys and his guys have been a big upgrade. 

As a whole, you have to say a lot of the team's offseason strategy worked. They wanted to build a stronger, more cohesive locker room. We've seen that, the whole atmosphere around the team feels different than 2016-2017. They wanted to reshape the coaching staff to emphasize teaching and development. We've seen that. I can't speak too much on guys like Studesville and Tolbert, but it seems like they were almost friends to the players more than they were coaches and things had gotten too casual. They struck out on a lot of the veteran role player signings, but they couldn't have been banking too much on any of those guys. 

[Broncofan]

Well this probably belongs in the next GDT but that’s too early - we should definitely be favorites next week.  We can still lose the game the same way we beat more talented teams the last 2 weeks (lose the TO battle, make more mistakes), but we surely will enter as road favorites now.  

 

 

[paul-mac]

I’m a bit torn on Vance Joseph, certainly I was ready to stick a fork in him at the bye week but the team has come out to play for him since. I actually thought we won in spite of him last week, but he coached a good game yesterday. 

 

The thing that I like about him is that the two times I’ve felt he was at risk imminently losing his job, the players saved it for him. The first was on black Monday last year when they lobbied Elway to keep him, then on TNF against Arizona I thought a defeat would lead to him being instantly fired and we went and won 45-10. It’s clear to me he has the support of the locker room and thus it’s a bit of a risky move to fire him. 

 

If it’s the case that we have him as a “leader of men” type then we need to find very good co-ordinators this offseason, particularly on the defensive side of the ball where I’ve not been remotely impressed with Joe Woods. Really the biggest mistake this team has made in recent years was to let Wade Phillips go and I would be busting a gut to try and bring in an elite defensive mind. Even someone like Todd Bowles who has struggled as a HC but was a great DC could be worth a pickup as the co-ordinator.

 

OC is a bit harder because all the good offensive minds these days get picked up to be head coaches. I wonder if you’re almost better taking a gamble on a young QB coach and hoping you can get a good couple of seasons of play calling out of him before he draws HC interest rather than picking up the latest retread version of Mike McCoy or Bill Musgrave.

[champ11]

1 hour ago, paul-mac said:

I’m a bit torn on Vance Joseph, certainly I was ready to stick a fork in him at the bye week but the team has come out to play for him since. I actually thought we won in spite of him last week, but he coached a good game yesterday. 

 

The thing that I like about him is that the two times I’ve felt he was at risk imminently losing his job, the players saved it for him. The first was on black Monday last year when they lobbied Elway to keep him, then on TNF against Arizona I thought a defeat would lead to him being instantly fired and we went and won 45-10. It’s clear to me he has the support of the locker room and thus it’s a bit of a risky move to fire him. 

 

If it’s the case that we have him as a “leader of men” type then we need to find very good co-ordinators this offseason, particularly on the defensive side of the ball where I’ve not been remotely impressed with Joe Woods. Really the biggest mistake this team has made in recent years was to let Wade Phillips go and I would be busting a gut to try and bring in an elite defensive mind. Even someone like Todd Bowles who has struggled as a HC but was a great DC could be worth a pickup as the co-ordinator.

 

OC is a bit harder because all the good offensive minds these days get picked up to be head coaches. I wonder if you’re almost better taking a gamble on a young QB coach and hoping you can get a good couple of seasons of play calling out of him before he draws HC interest rather than picking up the latest retread version of Mike McCoy or Bill Musgrave.

Solid points. @AKRNA too. I guess we can learn a lot to close the season

[French Fan]

10 hours ago, paul-mac said:

Really the biggest mistake this team has made in recent years was to let Wade Phillips go

 

How many points KC put against the Rams and how many against Denver ,the Chiefs scores in 2 games ?

Stop to call Wade Philipps a genius. Rams defense is one of the most talented and not performed at the highest level that Denver played under Wade.

Denver defense this season is not the best unit , CB's and LB's are a weakness (except Harris). When a team exploit the middle of the field we don't have an answer. The TE is not cover each times. When you play a team with a good TE you are in bad situation.

 

 

 

[jsthomp2007]

17 hours ago, AKRNA said:

I think my criteria for a HC may differ a bit from yours. The product put on the field is First and foremost. I want to see a  well prepared football team take the field and play their hearts out for 60 minutes. If they do that then I'm pretty pleased. Thats the HC.

We could always get a John Fox like coach thats awful at player development, conservative to a fault, but pretty good at game management, sideline appearance and in front of the cameras. His teams just never perform to potential. Of course, we wouldn't be getting the production from our 8+- rookies on the roster.

Anyway, I was on the dump VJ bandwagon after the Jets loss but our performance since is changing my mind. Who'd have thought we'd go 3-3 and take every game down to the wire against that schedule. I sure didn't. 

I guess we do have to consider VJ a young HC just as we would a player, in that you kind of have to let them develop and you take your lumps with that development.  Perhaps in a year to two the in-game management will improve?  It is easy to jump ship when things aren't going well, but Elway has stayed the course.  Let's hope there is continued improvement. 

How could is the OL coach?  It seems like he found the OL combo, by default from injuries.  And, the OL seems to have been tested with a Steelers defense that will blitz every down and a formidable Chargers DL.  

[BroncosFan2010]

I find it just so bizarre and hard to read that this team fights so hard for a coach that more often than not looks completley lost on the sideline. But, something is working behind the scenes and for all intents and purposes this team is fighting tooth and nail for their HC. Maybe it was Vance coming close to getting the boot that woke the team from slumber, maybe its always been there and it just took an elite draft class to infuse the talent we needed to pull some W's out. But something is there. Is it enough to keep him around? IDK. Probably not, but depending on the coaching options who knows.

I am still tremendously dissapointed that Case is being paid so much, and that we are guaranteed another year of his boring, noodle armed play. But the 2018 draft class has made this team watchable and the defense, once again, is refusing to die.

Still, end of the day, this win cant be cause for toooooo much celebration. Its always great to beat a good team, especially after the trials of early this season, but literally everything went our way. You cant rely on four highlight worthy TO's each Sunday. Make no mistake, the more talented team clearly lost last Sunday. But a W is a W. We need to just keep building a little momentum and if lightning strikes we may sneak into the WC and happily get steamrolled by whomever we play. But 17 games is better than 16.